Can we please make nora beast viable again... example: Nora beast Stats: 65 nora power store: lose 10hp, gain 15nora over the space of 7 rounds you gain 90 nora.... meaning a net gain of 25 nora. blood for nora: lose 20hp, save 20 nora from the next spell you cat (utterly pointless ability) Deepcave extractor stats: 42 nora extraction: gain 15 nora by turning a square into ooze, gain by your 5th turn you have made a net gain of 3 nora, and then you produce 15 nora for every single 2nd round thereon in.... how is the nora beasts nora cost even justifiable when you compare it to the deepcave extractor... the initial cost of the nora beast is more, making it a bigger burden to bring out, its lumbering meaning you cant send it off to capture fonts, and most of all it dies once youve used its ability for the 6th time! either the deepcave extractor is too cheap or the nora beast is far too expensive. It would be nice to see nora beast as a viable nora generator for ST again. Thanks!
Do anyone use nora abilities anymore? hmm sure seen a few FW with UT and FS with marsch songs. Tested deepminer + nora mines in IS, but they are to slow before returning profit, even when i try to stall games they are useally over before these would start give any benefit.
I fooled around with soul frost the other day st has enough adaptive units to make it work. If Jakei get a few more pieces I believe it would be a deck
Nora mine is actually better nora gen than marsh song (5 nora/turn after initial 5 turn payment vs. 3.3 nora per turn casting MS as soon as it comes off cooldown). If more people played IS we would definitely see a lot more of it. Unseismable. SAD!
If anything its good to bring this rune to soks attention in case anything can be done with it in the future. Thanks for the responses!
Hold on. Blood for Nora reduces the cost of the spell (not just a refund) so it also reduces the spell cooldown by 4 turns. This is a Big Deal. Pick your favourite 40 nora spell and imagine being able to cast it twice in one turn with two Nora Beasts out. Edit: Actually, do spells work like that or is it just champs?
JS blood for nora if used on a turn you cast a spell (when else would you use that ability) is 20 nora gen in 1 turn. that's not useless at all especially on a champion who's entire point is to drain his health to generate nora.
Its 20hp for 20 nora reduction on a spell, there is going to be an extremely rare situation in which you would spend 20hp to get 20 nora reduction on a spell rather than spend 10hp to get 15nora on anything you want
Is Retreat and Nora Beast not worth the investment? Retreat: 35 Nora (-15/20 from Blood for Nora and Power Store making it a no cost spell) to gain 32 nora within a turn or two of deploying Nora Beast; Two rune slots makes Nora Beast 32 nora technically, since you get half your nora on it whenever you cast Retreat, so all of it's noragen capabilities can be maxed out and then Retreat can be cast to rinse repeat. Relics roughly cost 30-35 nora and do not generally move; Nora Beast deployed with the intention of using it as a 'relic' to contest and generate nora is a pretty sweet deal. Ofc very niche, but not every rune is going to fit into every bg. Legs/Commons should have the most splashability with UC/R/EX pushing further away from cookie cutter and what is expected to be meta. Focused Nexus is also one of those runes no one ever uses but does well with Nora Beast since the spell is so cheap, lasts long, and can be placed on the font with nora beast to further contest. Then there's Wish; same nora cost breakdown as Retreat. Add Chronomancer to help with the spam and ease the burden of Lumbering from Nora Beast with Haste/Teleport on Chronomancer. Staff of Ascendance is great to equip on Nora Beast and Wish on to other units; all playing into the spam more playstyle. Everfost Manacles as well. Does a 15nora Patience not sound appealing? What about ST/SP Beasts? Magnify Beast grants +45 max HP; Healing Deficiency doesn't reduce the gain. and Staff of Ascendance is a split rune so there's even more freedom to build a bg, Healing Deficiency does not reduce Max HP gain from intensify idk if I'm missing anything here, because any unit with these abilities in any faction is OP; not meta enough? (this with the condition that OP does not equal Meta, and so you can have non-meta runes be OP, since the meta is not solely made up of OP runes) TL;DR When Blood for Nora was in IS...man that was OP. Veilwalker with ToV was ridiculous, and it would never die with Tactical Manual equipped to it; and prenerf Reinfore you could just refund her and then start all over. There's WTF OP like BfN Veilwalker was and then there's OP like Nora Beast, clearly not the same but the runes play completely different. I would not consider Veilwalker the 'moving relic' that Nora Beast is just because they both have the same Nora Gen ability; nor would I think any other Nora Gen rune can so easily be compared to when the roles of each rune vary so widely.
If we're looking at nora gen, the most important thing is your rate of return. There are basically 4 types of nora gen - trickle (anything that is context dependent like flame siphon or essence capture), burst (similarly context dependent but gives more over larger intervals like sacrifice, in a normal context retreat is a poor version of this type), single payment (you pay once and as long as the generator survives it provides a consistent rate of return such as nora mine or any nora miner), and upkeep (you need to continuously invest over the course of the game to get a consistent rate of return, marsh song and nora cow both fit into this category). The first two categories are difficult to compare outside of the game, but the last two can be theorycrafted with some basic math. As I mentioned earlier, marsh song is the gold standard of nora generation: you pay 30n up front for 50n later, and the spell has a 6 turn cooldown so you are looking at 20 nora every 6 turns at the cost of one rune slot. Nora cow is 65n with BfN, 58n without. It is the most expensive up-front cost for a dedicated nora generator so you'd expect a better rate. At 60hp it can use power store 6 times for 90 nora total. If you pick up the globe (which means having another champ hanging back in a font that's safe enough for a passive champ to hang out) that's an extra 9 nora, a total of 99-58= 41 nora over the champ's life span. If you don't grab that globe that rate is reduced to 32 nora over the champ's life span. There are 2 ways to look at this: either it's a normal-length game and you deploy the nora cow once or it's a very long game and we can look at the cow as a real rate. Essentially we are looking at either trading a rune slot and a big tempo hit for 41/32n once per game, or we're looking at a rate of return of 41 n (the new cow is deployed on the old cow's globe) every 6 lifespan + 12 CD turns. That's a steady state of a little over 2n/turn in a long game, which is exactly the type of game that people put nora gen into their deck for. So 58n cow = either trading a rune slot for 41n if you can afford the tempo hit or rune slot for 2.1 nora per turn. Again, marsh song is 3.3n per turn and nora mine is 5n per turn, for roughly half the tempo hit. The 65n BfN cow with a retreat combo would take place over a 3-turn lifespan to generate 45n and a 20n discount at the cost of 50hp (3 power stores and a BfN), leaving a live cow. I am going to lump the discount in as nora gen for simplicity, if we add in the nora generated by retreat it's 65n from cow +32 from retreat = 97n generated by the combo. Since BfN was included as nora gen I'm tallying up the full price of the spell for the input and we're looking at a total generation of 97n-(65 upfront for cow + 35 for retreat)... And we run into a bit of a problem here.
No idea why people keep trying to get retreat to work the math is not on their side. Anyway the only combo I see working with nora beast is st/fs and use aqua talisman on them. That said you are dedicating a minimum of 4 runes maybe 6 to this nora gen in a split that could just use marsh song
My issue with theorycrafting like this is that now every rune with a Nora gen ability is classified and put in this role of Nora gen, similarly if a unit has an anti-Nora gen ability it become just that; an anti Nora gen rune. Certainly calculating and theory crafting turn by turn in an ideal situation is going to bound the game which is beneficial but that is not at all how games are played. It's a game not science so expecting and defining X as a constant and ideal situation does not help the game at all, or for that matter further balance things, cite a specific ranked game and I would entertain these ideas more, and only if the counters are theory crafted just as much as the ideal situation. I cast backfire boon to your Marsh Song; you now must wait for it to come off cd to use the individual rune; there's no counter to deploying units, spells cannot contest fonts... While yes I agree there is a standard set with Marsh Song, comparing Nora Beast and Marsh Song is idiotic. You don't have to agree with how I value runes but Spells are of a different class than Units and cannot be compared similarly. It gets too convoluted at that point; is it a FW spell, are you playing SP, running duplicates, etc. since those variables are almost never given by forum members this is why I see Marsh Song as one rune and Nora Beast another, clearly a player splitting ST/FS would not choose Nora Beast over Marsh Song but to deny one runes value simply because the spectrum of Nora Gen units is subpar to compare from is poor for balance. That goes for all mechanics and abilities, AP gen spells are ofc great, but are used entirely different than unit runes that generate AP, because they are unit runes. TL;DR Units and Spells can bind the game and allow us to define a specific category for runes to fit into however; Spells are of a different variety than Champion runes and therefore the comparison only holds it's water when only discussing(theorycrafting) mechanics. Add in the specific roles (C/S/R/E) of each rune and how it gets played and the theory crafting does not hold its own. More simply put...your opponent can cast Backfire to deny your Marsh Song which disrupts your theory crafting all together; your opponent can also cast False Orders to disrupt your Nora Gen units deploy, however there are no runes in the game that outright fizzle your rune the way Spells can be disrupted. Aseryen's Poxnora Service Announcment: For those new players it is very important to run scenarios through for yourself. Take what I say and what others say with a grain of salt, especially considering that this game has seen less than 100avg players a day for the past year or so; the scenarios one player idolizes may not occur as frequently as we like to suggest. Backfire and Backfire Boon are great runes but are only an issue if the opponent has it in their bg. The meta of these 100people is going to be worlds different once the new wave of players enters. Urban Dictionary 'Dutch Rudder' for a more apt example of what ranked play is with less than 100 players.
