Police shoots 12 year old with toy gun, cops walk

Oh yeah, storms. As long as something else kills more people a year, it's kind of okay, right?

Why would we possibly hold people who have sworn to protect to a higher standard for respect of the human life than storms or bathtubs.


My problem also isn't so much with the fact that cops are shooting people, my problem is that every one of them seems to get away with it, while sometimes it seems to be fairly questionable. Not all of them are in the wrong. Not all of them are right.

But the ugly truth is that the prosecutors don't really give a damn about inditing a cop, even to go as far as pleading the case FOR the cop recently. Gotta think about your own careers first.





Oh and about Black Lives Matter, I can understand some of their frustration when treated differently by cops (searches, shootings, yada yada), that doesn't give them the right to go berserk though. Stuff get's really silly.

Anyhow, thoughts.

 

there is no reason to be so willingly ignorant. he's not saying "oh well Bane Shift happens dont worry about it", he's saying "its not the epidemic you are making it out to be and certainly isnt deep rooted enough to be generalizing the way you are". There is a police misconduct website you can peruse, and from it youll find about 1 in 300 sworn officers get investigated for misconduct a year.

when people start bringing up violence statistics by race, it is to get across 2 points:

1. the hypocrisy of your concern regarding police violence in the face of a subculture (inner city thug life nonsense) that is vastly more dangerous (is there a "white version" of chicago out there?)
2. when anybody, even animals in nature learn via conditioning that a particular species is inherently more dangerous, they respond to that species differently. sad but true

having said that, there are officers that make poor decisions, there are judges and juries with poor moral character, and there are racists. but it is not an institutionalized conspiracy

Everybody wants police to conduct themselves with high moral character, but that genuine want you clearly have really gets muddled when you cry wolf as often as BLM has (as well our govt, political figures, celebs, etc).

http://heyjackass.com/

Some interesting stats on this website

 

And yet your statistics are pretty concerning compared to other western countries. I don't know how I'm generalizing when I keep saying that this isn't a "all policemen x thing", it's just a "too much of y happens and it's not ok" thing. On top of that, the way some of these deaths resemble a public execution by emptying clips is not ok.

And how many of them actually get found guilty of misconduct? Because the high profile cases more often than not all seem to end the same way: with no charges whatsoever. Guy climbs out of a car? Better shoot him on the spot, no problem, by the book. Pumping a clip on the spot in a guy? Eh what can you do.

Also, more people were killed in 2015 than in 2014, while the crime rate wasn't higher.

http://www.vox.com/2015/12/23/10621932/police-deaths-2015

So police officer deaths (129) are down 4% compared to last year and deadly shootings are down from 49 to 39 deaths. (in 2013 a historic low at 107, close enough).

Chicago crime rate even went down by 12%

Crime rate down by 49% from 1994 to 2014 according to FBI data

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/20...hot-dead-by-the-cops-reported-deaths-suggest/

Somebody stop all these black guys, jezus

I'm not denying that there's an argument to be made for the subculture and whatnot, but 21 times is pretty hefty.

And just recently, in the hell that is chicago

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...irst-ask-questions-later-cops-kill-again.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/29/us/chicago-police-shooting-legrier-father-interview/

"we call the cops to help us, unfortunately they shot us dead". Oh our bad.

Let's hope this investigation actually amounts to something. As the article mentioned, this is the result of a "shoot first, ask questions later" policy that seems baked into the US police. In the 21st century, with respect for human life, often this policy doesn't do much good. Quite the opposite.

Disclaimer: not all cops are bad. Not all people they shot were bad. I'm just saying that the statistics are disproportionate compared to other western countries.

So we agree

You could argue that it's too hyped or made out to be more than it is. Than again, if you feel the different treatment from police officers daily because of the color of your skin, you just might get upset about it. Is BLM out of line? No idea, I have very little idea of what they do and I don't care enough about the movement specifically to find out. However, at some level they're right about feeling the different treatment, from frisking to arrests to shootings.

Oh yeah those black people in chicago are way out of line.

Doesn't have anything to do with the socio-economic situation of a ruined city, it's just the color of their skin and the "inner city thug" that's doing all that stuff.
Chicago is in absolutely terrible shape. Frustration levels must be quite high there, I assume. I wonder why crime rates are so high there?

Disclaimer 2: I'm just looking at this stuff with the colored glasses of a white suburban Belgian guy. Stuff seems off. That's all.

 

I don't have time to go over all the things I consider to be in error with that, but please post where you get your stats to support this statement and please post the stats.

"this is the result of a "shoot first, ask questions later" policy that seems baked into the US police"

Now keep in mind how many people interact with cops each day every day for the whole year, I wont pull up numbers for you since you should already know them from your vast study. If the policy was baked in you would have 10s of thousands dead each year, but hey I get it you like rhetoric not backed up by facts and like to make claims with no substance.

Gorgias would be proud!

 

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liber...police-officers-shoot-first-and-ask-questions
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/u...first-and-he-will-answer-questions-later.html

Isolated case surely.

It must be some sort of urban myth, then. Or it's just been repeated so many times for years by all those Liberals who spread propaganda. Surely.

 

Ah so a report of one guy doing this is "conspiracy confirmed" lol that's exactly how this stuff starts. Amazing this one dude warped all the police officers in America to shoot first and ask questions later, you convinced me with those links to that one guy.

 

Let me just ask all psychologist if they train cops to disregard human life, that should go well.

Either way, as I said and as you conveniently didn't read, the expression "shoot first, ask questions later" has been associated with the US for decades now. Coincidence? Perhaps.

 

That's just more vague non fact based rhetoric. a fact is you used one person to try and prove a national point, I can find one person to tell you anything and or any crackpot idea in the world, doesn't prove national conspiracy.

I could say the Belgiums have a long standing tradition of trolling americans since they are still butthurt that America had to save them during ww2 and their pride is hurt. Does that make it true ? and prove your whole nation has a problem? or is that just a stupid statement by one person ? hmmm I wonder

 

To be fair, I don't think it's a conspiracy. I also don't think it's individual racist cops, or even racist organizations (except possibly in Ferguson and some other isolated areas).

I DO think it's standardized (federal) training programs where police are taught to shoot first and ask questions later, which, combined with the (relative to population) increased crime-rate of Black citizens (especially in places like Chicago) causes a great number of issues.

 

Perhaps I should have nuanced my point more, but yeah, thanks.

 

So... your platform is that without government intervention all of these "goals" would naturally occur? Or is it just that your concept of a "conservative" is that stupid? Or both?

I mean, how are you going to get more Black people in prison if you halt government? And how are you going to keep that military spending going, and all that?

I guess I'm the most liberal of liberals, since I'm pretty much down with all of that with two caveats:

1. Does someone working on a factory floor actually work harder than a CEO?

Honest question. I've never been a CEO, but while there is no question as to physical output being higher, generally, for someone doing hard physical labor, are they actually putting in more effort? Are they actually working harder?

I've done a bit of labor. Construction, mucking, that sort of thing. But while there's no doubt it takes a bit more out of me physically, I wouldn't say it's harder than writing a book, or creating a song. While I've done those, I don't know how they compare to being a CEO, but I can't imagine that being a CEO would be much easier.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think there are a number of CEO's with overly bloated pay, and that there are issues there. But just because you're sitting in a chair doesn't mean you don't work hard.


2. I understand that government can become corrupt by itself even without corporate intervention. There have been numerous examples of this in the past and (arguably) the present. For me what is necessary to keep government free of corruption is to firstly have enough checks and balances to slow the potential spread of corruption and minimize the impact of individual corrupt members of that government. And secondly to have the populace in general keep a close eye on things and do all they can to root out corruption when it appears.

Basically, one cannot only blame the Corporations, but also should blame faulty systems (where available) and more importantly the ignorance and/or apathy of the people who ultimately should be running the government: AKA: The People.

 

Would you or anyone ? have some sort of information on standardized training of this or what is their procedure ? I think this is the exact point where you train them to do the right thing or alter procedure etc. In a case where they are being trained wrong or in a way that endangers way more than it should that is the perfect point to make a change.

As a general rule I put no faith in cops or their training and I stay far far away from them cause the only thing worse than an idiot is an armed idiot who is backed by the state. That being said I don't see a conspiracy or general sentiment by police of "hey guy if its a black person just shoot em then figure out what they wanted" I think the rhetoric of such ideas to be just as dangerous as poorly trained or corrupt cops.

I also think there is a wide variation in how someone who has been around weapons having them pulled etc and those who never had such experiences and don't account for what it feels like or changes your normal reactions when you are the one that a threat that could kill you is aimed at. Put a heart rate monitor on then have some random dude pull a weapon on you and watch what happens.

 

Context is important.

For me, the big problem is that the police are going there, and, seemingly, not looking at the context, not looking into the situation as much as maybe they should before approaching.

Instead of taking cover and trying to talk to the suspect or waiting for reinforcements, shooting.

Or, instead of focusing on getting bystanders out of the area and isolate the suspect, shooting.


That won't always be an option. But if they're going off the report: "this kid's got a gun!" or something there should be reasonable opportunity to prepare for a more appropriate reaction. Mainly, asking questions first then shooting later if necessary.


But this is my opinion as someone whom has never been part of the police, nor ever had to kill a human in my own defense.

 

I agree completely, also my statement wasn't directed at you as far as the comment of mine you quoted just an overall statement so wasn't "calling you out" lol

In the case that started this whole thread, my first thought was, why are the cops pulling up so close to someone who they had a call about as possibly armed and then just getting out of car. To me seems like and excellent way to get shot getting out of your car if your a cop and also putting you way to close to someone possibly armed from the get go. It sounds like this situation was handled poorly from outset by a number of people and or institutions.

 

It amazes me that when provided with documented proof, you fall back on some Bane Shift that may as well be "I saw Die Hard and that must be EXACTLY how all cops in America act". America is not Belgium. You cannot generalize our population like you can in your home due to shear size and spread. You ESPECIALLY cannot when cut and dry data is available to you.



Watch this video if you want some insight on why America's gun violence stats dont line up with "other western countries" (hint, it has much to do with the same inner city nonsense weve already discussed).

As far as the thinkprogress link you provided, let me quote this to you:

"The data, for instance, is terribly incomplete. Vast numbers of the country's 17,000 police departments don't file fatal police shooting reports at all, and many have filed reports for some years but not others. Florida departments haven't filed reports since 1997 and New York City last reported in 2007. Information contained in the individual reports can also be flawed. Still, lots of the reporting police departments are in larger cities, and at least 1000 police departments filed a report or reports over the 33 years."

Did you also happen to research the number of people (white and black) killed by black folks, despite the black population being around the 15% mark? here: http://downtrend.com/vsaxena/blacks-murder-more-whites-than-whites-murder-blacks

police killed 700 people in 2015. We also have over 1 million people employed in law enforcement, with 700,000 being sworn. Belgium has 12K total, with likely 7k actual officers. Do a little math and wed find that Belgian officers would have to kill 7 people a year to hit the same rate. Except, Belgium doesnt have the cesspools of violent subcultures (yet) we have in Chicago, New York, Washington DC, Oakland, St Louis, etc.

Im curious about your comment about "emptying magazines". Have you ever had to shoot someone? Ever had someone shoot at you? Ever took a moment to research police/military policy on escalation of force or when/how to use lethal force? Ever handled a weapon?

So to sum up, you are woefully ill equipped to be having this conversation. Your innate bias (as evidenced by your nonsensical assertion that ALL POLICE SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER because some guy told me), your complete lack of practical experience (being from another country and all; one that is worlds different than ours), and your clearly immature world view all do you no favors.

research more, ask more questions, wait longer to jump to conclusions.

 

let me again reinforce so that we do not become too polarized, that Police do indeed have a higher standard that they should be held to

 

BP, and others, refuse to watch Molyneux. Even if the episode is with a PhD man/woman that is deeply involved with cutting edge research and/or high level gvt programs, they still refuse to learn/grow/invest. Even if I just link to and discuss FBI statistics, they prefer to focus on the few sensationalistic videos/cases instead of the big picture. Another common evasion is to claim that divergence in crime by race is almost completely due to racism. In short, the level of willful ignorance is epic.

Look at the thread title. The 5'7" and 195# young man brandished a pistol at two approaching cops, but BP chooses to focus on the kids age and the toy he was carrying. Never mind that it looks like a real gun, that the cops were responding to the call of a concerned resident, or that the cop had a split second to make a decision. BP is training to be a detective in Belgium, so maybe he feels like an expert on law enforcement in Ohio. [shrug]