PoxNora imProvement Projects #1

Good job guys, its turning into a shoebox buff thread. Sigh.
I had high hopes of nora costs going up eventually, due to being more "realistic" and all, but truth be told: people are already too attached to "pox revamp Pox", all they keep saying is "champ has a nora modifier, should cost less" or "champ has a sandbag ability, should cost less".
What a wasted opportunity to make this game balanced again. I applaud you for your effort, Sok, but I doubt you will pull this off if the players arent willing, and from what I can gather they arent willing - they just want the cheap champ spam thingy going on.

 

Do you have any good examples of the suggests you would have hoped for this thread? I think that would be more useful.

 

Well, first and foremost I dont think my "suggestion" is going to be useful at all, because my premise is different from Sok's: my "baseline" for stats on champs is around 50 nora, while his is 40 nora. So, if my "model" was being used, everything would already have a +10 nora cost on them, accross the board.
Putting that aside, a good example of what I think this thread should accomplish is changing champs like Draksar Marine to not be so obscenely cheap. So this guy at its cheapest build is 56 nora (using Poxbase). On my mind, 62-65 nora isnt bad at all, and in the "old" Pox it would be considered very cheap. However, on todays meta, if you saw this guys kit at 65 nora people would immediately call it shoebox.
So, even without a 10 nora increase on champs, Sok could look at this champ and say "Im giving it a cost modifier and now this champ, without changes, costs 63 nora. Deal with it".
Thats what I was hoping from this thread. Doubt it will be like this.

 

Alright, help me out here -- you think that the costing formula for units is fundamentally flawed right now, and thus you can't personally work with this thread. Do you think Draksar Marine should get a cost increase from its current value, all else being equal? Can't quite tell from how you're phrasing things.

 

Sorry about the phrasing, english isnt my naitive tongue.
Yes, I think the costing formula for units is fundamentally flawed right now. However, I dont think the costing formula is changing, Sok already expressed that he thinks its accurate as is (at least his baseline for stats).
That said, I do think Draksar Marine should get a cost increase from its current value, all else* being equal (since the formula isnt changing).


*Well, not "all else", mostly the outliers should get changed (so units with a too big of a nora cost and a too low of a nora cost).

 

Ok. I think you'd help more by suggesting changes to those things which you think need changes. Talking about how messed up the whole thread is just bothers people who are trying to post and makes you look like a grumpy old man. If, on the other hand, you pointed out things like the Marine that you think especially need changes to make the game more fit your vision, people would at least know what you want to say, and maybe listen. You clearly have stuff you want to bring up -- that's why folks post here, it's why I'm posting here -- so if you do it in a way that other people want hear, then bingo, you're on your way.

 

Thing is, kal, I've "worked" for Pox for about 3 years of my life. Helping designing champs, helping keep balance in check, making reviews on expansions, doing the exact same thing people are doing now with the Crate and all. Only difference is that, at the time, it was only me + 4 or 5 other dudes, and some didnt even put as much effort as I did.
So yeah, Im done doing that. I can complain all I want about everything I want, and if people think Im a grumpy old man, I couldnt care less - they have nothing to do with my life and I with theirs. I also think some people here are complete idiots, or have a big **** up their assess, and I dont think it bothers them at all what I think.
So yeah, Im not going to pinpoint every champ I need should be "fixed".
Thanks for the heads up, though.

 

Part of the issue is several of us don't fully understand the costing formulas so what we genuinely are suggesting as improvements comes across as BUFF PLZ or NRF OMG. Help noobs understand costs (like the 10 dmg being average)

 

Well, then I think it doesn't make much sense to complain about other people not doing what you now refuse to do, and it doesn't make much sense to berate other people for having opinions about which you say you don't care. You certainly can complain about everything, but do something else -- either channel that back into making those suggestions you want other people to make in your stead, or just into something other than Pox. Vociferous and ultimately vacuous objections aren't doing anyone here any favors, and they certainly don't look like they're doing you an either.

People here absolutely have something to do with your life, and you with theirs. Every time anyone here posts something for others to read, or reads something posted here by someone else, those people make the decision to involve themselves with each other. It's not some dream just because it's digital. We're all talking with real folks, often in real time. Any person with whom you interact is a part of your life, no matter how small; any way in which you interact with others makes you a part of their life as well. You are honestly as much a part of my life as anyone I might pass on the street, probably a lot more, considering how much we've talked on these forums. So show some consideration for that. Use your voice to do something, at least, other than gratify some crotchety impulse. If you're going to spit, at least aim somewhere. Or just don't. I like hearing what you have to say, just so long as you're actually saying something other than "I am mad and bitter and everyone else needs to know it." I know you've put a ton of time into Pox, through a lot of different ways, and if you're through with that, then more power to you in everything else you do. But at least let the people here who are trying to change the game in a way they think is good do so without persistent, purposeless commentary. You can be irritating sometimes, but damn it, I just want you to be as helpful -- one way or another -- as you can be, even if that just means helping yourself.

 

About the nora cost, I think the cost formula should be designed around the following premise: "How often should a player be able to deploy a champion, use a spell/equipment, place a relic?"
This requires an understanding of average nora generation. If we take for example, the classic generation of 57 a turn (45 of shrine + 12 of font), that results in champions with nora cost of around 60 being desirable, as you can deploy 1 of them every turn. Or save nora, and in next turn play a champion and between 1/2 spells (with an average of 30 nora/spell).
It's a discussion I'd like to have, about average costs, game speed, and AP generation. Deploying a champion 1 turn earlier than your enemy, doesn't only giuve you a positional advantage, but you will have more AP on the board at your disposal.
Considerations like that should be taken into account when deciding between playing a spell, or deploying a champion: "Does the effect of X spell justify the delay in deploying a champ? How much nora will have my opponent to invest to counter the amount of nora I am spending now?"

 

Ok. I will stop posting, because I honestly can't make "constructive posts" anymore.
However, I think most of you guys have a very, very wrong picture of me. I'm not a bitter person, nor am I angry all the time, nor am I in any kind of trouble that would demand "helping myself". I'm just pissed off at the direction Pox is heading (have been since the failed revamp), and me bashing, if nothing else, was a yellow light that should be paid attention to. Hope someone else can fill that role now.
And yeah, @Rapidice , thats exactly the kind of discussion that should be brought to the table. Because Pox went from a strategy game, with different ways to achieve victory, mass powerturn spells with careful nora calculation, etc, to a game of who can outdeploy the opponent further.
Im sure there are a lot of people who love that style of game, but there are a lot of people as well who dont (me included). And atm the game favors only one crowd, the cheap champ spam crowd.

 

i don't know about you guys but you need to get out of the 60+ mentality where everything needs to be cheaper to be runable

 

i would consider 68-78 as balanced as avg rune price

 

Plains Savage comes in at 101 nora with an 8/6/1-2/1/42 stat line. It has 60 nora worth of abilities. Easy Target offsets both upgrades, but Barbarian Rider is 60 nora. Barbarian rider drops a renegade with no upgrades. Renegade is 58 nora with default upgrades. The default upgrades are 11 nora, which means the dropped renegade is worth 47 nora.

Could we start by reducing the rider ability to cost the same as the unit it generates?

For a comparison, Mounted Kinsman, 79 nora, has a 10/6/1-2-1-50 stat line. It has 32 nora worth of abilities. Team states that when the unit dies, it respawns in the same place with -2 damage, no multiattack, and no team. That means the dropped unit is worth 2 damage and 28 nora worth of abilities less than the initial champ, or 2 damage less than 51 nora for an 18 nora ability.

 

That much? Wow. I thought it was 2*width + 1.7*max, but that would be barely 15.

 

Yeah fae didn't seem to fair well with the formula. Nymph has too many abilities and costs a tonne aswell I miss attack: yellow psychic

 

- I mean we can list runes that are punished by abilities and then you can list the costs of the abilities til we're blue in the face but that's not really getting us anywhere. We all know why drak marine was costed so low as well... And things like S. Anathema are costed so high.... It doesn't exactly make it alright because we know why it is so.

- Or am I misunderstanding what "pretty easy" means here...I don't think dmr or others doubt there is a reason these units cost what they do but merely want to point out they are not worth the sums of their parts vs cost