Question about backlash + soul tapped.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ghklf, Feb 13, 2015.


    IMAGIRL Forum Royalty

    Tried reading it. Could not understand after the first part, as your entire thought blended together. The entire thing blends together. Format it please. I would like to continue this debate.

    I will comment on what I did understand. Conditional Abilities. It is not apt to think, of passive effects as Conditional Abilities, because we already have Conditional Abilities.

    Grant: X
    Mutation: X
    Might of Ironfist.
    Mark of Redemtion

    Just to name a few. All of which gives, abilities under set conditions.

    Things like, Charred, Chilled, Paralyzed, and yes Soultapped are like viruses infecting you for a duration. They are not active, or even passive abilities.
  2. KingJad

    KingJad I need me some PIE!

    These conditional abilities you speak of have ability counterparts while soultapped is not one of these.
    IMAGIRL likes this.
  3. ghklf

    ghklf The King of Potatoes

    If this has been discussed several times, and people still get confused about it, then this must be something buggy here.

    Either the way how it should work or the description itself(maybe both of them).

    Abilities sometimes work like conditions, but abilities r abilities, conditions r conditions and they r different for sure.

    Fading Recollection removes all abilities except basic attack but it does not remove any conditions.

    We do not know the source code(I bet even devs don't fully understand) therefore we learn from its description first then the actual effect, but when they conflict, we don't which one it is meant to be.

    This is just one of many confusing cases caused by ability and condition difference, I think.
  4. SPiEkY

    SPiEkY King of Jesters

    That's a poor assumption.
  5. ghklf

    ghklf The King of Potatoes

    why it is poor?
  6. Mausini

    Mausini I need me some PIE!

    I think you are making it a little to complicated.

    Description of the ABILITY Soultap:
    "At the beginning of the affected units turn, all soultapped champions lose 2 life and you gain nora for every point of life lost this way."

    Description of Backlash:
    "Whenever a champion or relic generates nora through an ABILITY it suffers damage equal to the amount generated."

    The ability Soultap gives the Soultap condition but the Soultap ability is the trigger = Backlash kickes in.
    Its like Stealth work. You have the ability Stealth that gives the stealth condition. The ability and its consequences are tied together.

    But yes the wording is a little bit flappy and could be more precise.

    IMAGIRL Forum Royalty

    By this definition: If I have a Soulcrawler, and you have a unit with Backlash, then my Soulcralwer will take damage when something it infected with Soultapped generates nora.

    The discussion is not about Soultap in particular, but about Backlash effecting a condition (Soultapped). I would be all for if it directly harmed the unit that inflicted the status. Then Backlash would actually be doing what it states it should.

    I also think you misunderstand. It is not the Soultap unit taking the damage. It is the Soultapped unit(s) that are. Which should not be happening by the phrasing of Backlash. If anything; the one who spreads around Soultapped should take damage, as it is what is specifically generating the nora.

    IMAGIRL Forum Royalty

    How Soultap, and Backlash are currently interacting.

    Champ A has Soultap
    Champ B becomes Soultapped, and generates nora.
    Champ C has Backlash, Oh no. Champ B has generated nora.
    Champ B takes damage, from Backlash.

    How Soultap, and Backlash should be working

    Champ A has Soultap
    Champ B becomes Soultapped, and generates nora.
    Champ C has Backlash, Oh no. Champ B has generated nora. (Because of Champ A's Soultap ability)
    Champ A takes damage, from backlash.
  9. sassquatch

    sassquatch I need me some PIE!

    Conditions are just "abilities" (read this term in the most loose sense) that have a duration and are applied via another champ. "conditional ability" was just a term I was using to talk about a point of view for interpreting descriptions when discussing these interactions.
    • grant: x is an actual ability that applies another actual ability to a different champ for 1 turn, its not a "conditional ability" although the X the second champ receives could be argued as a conditional ability. nothing here is able to be dispelled or cleansed to my knowledge. if the champ was targeted with fading recollection it would still retain the X for the remainder of the duration.
    • mutation: x is an actual ability that gives the same unit a different actual ability permanently. there is nothing conditional here and nothing is able to be dispelled or cleansed. FR would not remove the X ability.
    • set ablaze (which is a better example): the target champion receives a group of actual abilities (shielded immobile and pacified) as a lump sum condition that is cleansable. yes all of the individual components of the condition are abilities in their own right but they are applied as conditions. this is the kind of dual state thinking I was trying to get to when I made the comparison to wandering in my earlier post. these are more aptly thought of as conditional abilities.
    • Soul tapped is an unusual condition in that it has effects that hurt the champ with it and simultaneously helps the opponent of the affected champ by giving them nora. its obviously a cleansable condition but just because it is cleansable does that mean it cant (conceptually at the minimum) be thought of as an ability? even if it doesn't directly currently have a generic base uncleansable ability version of itself couldn't one exist?
    • the long and short of this section was just to point out that abilities can be conditions or abilities and yet still thought of both ways. then inversely cant conditions be thought of as both conditions and abilities.
    • this point was just made to open up a point of view for discussing how to interpret the description for backlash

    Backlash: Whenever a champion or relic generates nora through an ability it suffers damage equal to the amount generated.

    • if abilities can be conditions and conditions be abilities then by this interpretation it is WAI.
    • Alternatively, every other ability that triggers off of a random effect specifically states the exclusion of dots (im intentionally avoiding the term condition for this point for now) that affect that trigger.
      • X acolyte: heals when x damage type is dealt excluding damage from the X dot type.
    • Backlash does not make that exclusion. therefor if its not excluded then it must be allowed and as a result WAI

    I will not argue however that the description should be improved. I always end up reading it as:

    • Backlash: Whenever a champion or relic generates nora it suffers damage equal to the amount generated.

    However, as many times as its been discussed its always been decided by the devs that the interaction is WAI. should the description have been updated to reflect their desired ruling on this interaction... absolutely. to claim its not WAI because past management never got around to updating the ability description is also wrong.


    IMAGIRL Forum Royalty

    Conditions are NOT abilities. They are 2 separate entities.

    Its not really a better example
    • Shielded is an Ability, but it is given as a Condition. It is NOT added to the Passive ability list. So it is considered a Condition in this case.
    • Immobile, and Pacified are Conditions. They are even added that way.

    • Active Abilities Bar: Must be used to apply its effect.
    • Passive Ability Bar: Almost always constantly active, and applying its effect.
    • Condition Bar: What is currently effecting the champion.
    If Soultapped was added to the Passive Ability Bar, then we could talk. It's NOT an ability. It is a Condition, Treat it like one.
    KingJad likes this.
  11. TheBulwark

    TheBulwark I need me some PIE!

    I think you are misunderstanding what a conditon is. It is just an ability for a finite amount of time. Just because it is is negative does not make it less of an ability. Champ A in this scenario is not generating nora, champ B is
    SPiEkY likes this.
  12. TheBulwark

    TheBulwark I need me some PIE!

    It is poorly worded but conditions are conditional abilities as previously mentioned. They are set apart so as not to confuse people. But clearly it is not working

    IMAGIRL Forum Royalty

    Sigh. @Baskitkase @BurnPyro If this is the level of ignorance I have showed you in the past. I am formally apologizing to you both right now. I am sincerely sorry you had to put up with it.

    I'm done with this conversation. Continue with it as you please. My points have been set. Goodbye.
  14. TheBulwark

    TheBulwark I need me some PIE!

    Yeah its a done convo, some people dont understand the mechanic and how it works and cant comprehend it so its good if they leave the thread before they get too confused
  15. Mausini

    Mausini I need me some PIE!

    Now lets make it a little bit more interesting. I know only 2 other conditions that generates nora.

    Nora Shielded:
    No problem here. Can only self applyed. Nora Infusion cast able on opponents is/was a bug.

    Here its the other way around. The player that applied the condition get the backlash damage when attacking. From my understanding the backlash damage should work like Soultap does. The player with the illuminated champ should be damage but here it is the other way around.
    Bug or WAI? I am not sure.

    Nora Induction:
    Doesn't trigger Backlash at all... lol. Straight trough all mechanics.

    There are some other funny stuff that produce nora but all of them are abilities without conditions involved.
  16. ghklf

    ghklf The King of Potatoes

    First, conditions can be permanent. (e.g. Soul tapped caused by Soultap Garnet, Bloodied)

    Secondly, condtions can normally be cleansed or dispelled. Abilities can't. An example is Electricity Aura gained through Grant: Electricity Aura.

    This lasts for 2 turns and neither you nor ur opponent can get rid of it by using dispell or cleanse for dispell or cleanse only work on conditions not an ability.
  17. ghklf

    ghklf The King of Potatoes

    Grant: x lasts for 2 turns.

    What is the damage type caused by Backlash?

    Talking about RD, why RD can't remove gained abilities? RD does not specify the original to be removed.

    Over all, "conditional ability" only makes this complicated game more confusing.

    They should either seperate these 2 completely or unite them together.
    TheBulwark likes this.
  18. Nea

    Nea I need me some PIE!

    If we want to be precise about descriptions, then yes, a condition is not an ability, but then Soultap (the ability) does not generate nora by itself at all, hence Backlash should do nothing.

    If we have a disparity between descriptions and the way things are working in game, then either the implementation is wrong or the description is wrong. If it has been stated by greens to be WAI, then the description is wrong.

    My personal hunch is that whoever was implementing Backlash at the time didn't think of units (common term for champions & relics) being able to generate nora by means other than abilities, hence it was labeled as "through abilities" while the coded event triggers whenever the unit generates nora with no discrimination.
  19. Elves Rule

    Elves Rule I need me some PIE!

    new meta: find a way to nora shield enemies, get double damage on them.
  20. Mausini

    Mausini I need me some PIE!

    Ask iPox for the combo but he did it with Corrupted Nora for an instant shrine kill.

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