Self Identification - where does one draw the line?

like how homosexuality was once villivied I don't understand why people living like they want to live is such a huge issue? I thought you merrycans were all about dem freedoms? suicide rates being lower for post-op compared to pre-op transexuals should be reason enough to allow it. nobody is going to strap you down and do a surgery on your genitalia without your consent.

In many cultures women has the option to live and be treated as men ( to allow them to inherrit though they were no longer allowed to marry) how do you guys manage to be more backwards about this than the balkans 100 years ago?

comissar nails it; what about this affects you profhulk? are you just being a troll again? why are people passing laws forcing this person:

to use the womans bathroom.
And this person:

into the mens?

 

We agree on that, but @profhulk's post makes me think he believes sex and gender to be the same thing, and anyone claiming their sex and gender are different has gender dysphoria. Instead of trying to argue from a different premise, I was giving his viewpoint the benefit of the doubt and trying to point out exceptions that may still allow for the necessity for trans people to exist without gender dysphoria.

 

I personally do not care about wether or not there is gender dysphoria, if there is no other mental health issue and the results of accepting transgenders has preferable results to supressing them then I say let them be. like with euthenasia and self killing there are limitations in place so someone does not do it spur of the moment so it is fine.

referring to them as their preferred pronoun I do because it is the polite thing to do sort of like how I do not wear a hat indoors, stand up to greet people and don't randomly attack people who drag their feet, block aisles and talk in ways that annoy me. except calling someone he or she based on their personal prefference is way less tiring than not clawing someones face off.

 

Completely off topic, I used to think that euthanasia was youth in asia, due to China's one child policy.

 

Good 'ol right wing

Never change



"forcing society to change bathroom laws"

give me a Firking break. You're forcing society to get ****ed by big corporations just so your politicians can fill their pockets.

Let's not Firking pretend this is what is killing America. There's a million things wrong with the world before we start *****ing about shitting in a stall with a person of the opposite gender next to you. Holy Bane Shift.

And I thought the dems were pansy ass *****es

 

Oh I didn't see that before but.

it is not the left that is making/changing bathroom laws.

it is the right.

 

For what it's worth this wasn't always the case. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gender

Given the etymology of the word it should probably have been the other way around, honestly. But that's language for you. *shrug*

Sure, though honestly I don't think it should be mandated by law either way, that someone call someone by their preferred gender or not, or that a given private company be forced to allow/not allow members of a different Sex to use whatever bathroom.

Then again I find the entire "debate" rather insipid. I respect that people have got some issues with this, but there are more pressing concerns, even within the field of treatment of transsexuals. But that's just how I see it.

 

Though the left (Obama specifically) is sending out executive orders and mandates on the subject, and the EEOC is already launching (and settling at least one) cases of employment discrimination based on bathroom usage.

 

hehe man dates.

 

okay understood.

why you guys so obsessed with bathrooms anyway? kitchens are way more sexy.

 

Doesen't matter who started it. Big govt. should not be involved in this crap

Wtf that's comparing apples to oranges. Oh what a horrible comparison switching gender to switching hair color. Ridiculous.

 

I trust you at least saw the parallels I was drawing there? And I'm glad you agree with the rest of my post sufficiently to not need to comment on it and instead focus on the deliberately flawed argument I made as a preface. Though I can't help but notice that you didn't actually address the question I asked you.

Edit - Incidentally, what transgender's go through is switching sex so that what they are matches who they are. Switching gender would be out and out editing a part of who they are for the sake of other people being comfortable with what they are.

 

The physical gender doesen't match the gender in their head because they have psychological issues. Surgery doesen't fix this problem the suicide rate among transgenders remains the same even after surgery. Changing the bathroom laws to help transgender's feel more comfortable is not going to help either will surgery. Changing the bathroom laws will make it easier for sex offenders to mess with kids and transgender suicide rate will remain the same not because they are discriminated against but because they have a psychological problem with their own gender. I recommend all of you read what Walt Heyer an educated transgender has to say on the subject if you want first hand information. Here are a few books I recommend:


"Paper Genders: Pulling the Mask Off the Transgender Phenomenon" - By Walt Heyer
"Gender, Lies, and Suicide: A Whistleblower Speaks Out" - By Walt Heyer

 

he had 2 sex change operations but he was not transgender. he had a different psychological issue.

I think it is a mistake to use a single person who went kookoo during his midlife crisis as a source of anything he did during that time.

 

If true, you're right that that's a big deal, got a study to cite for that?

Incidentally, there are several studies arguing quite the opposite. Murad (2010), and Ainsworth (2010), to name two, both found those who received surgical treatment were markedly better off than those who didn't, and behaviourally were comparable to the general populace [1, 2]. Needless to say, better quality of life results in lowered suicide rates.

Incidentally, the rate of regret following reassignment surgery is very low. Johansson et al. (2009) find almost all those who undergo the surgery are satisfied with the results, and 86% were assessed as being stable or improved in their functioning [3]. Smith et al. (2005) similarly find very low regret rates, with only 2 of the 188 who completed their transitions in the study regretted their decision [4]. Dehjne et al. (2013) carried out a 50 year longitudinal study, and found that only 2.2% of their sample regretted transitioning [5].

Interestingly, despite major surgery complications occurring in 14% of their study group, Krege et al. (2001) found that not one person regretted their decision to transition in their group [6].

I have many more studies open and ready to cite, but I think I've made my point already.

Please see my previous references for surgery. Also, see Gerben's earlier post to highlight the absurdity of forcing transitioned individuals to use the wrong bathroom's.

See my earlier response for suicide rates.

The implication here is that the majority of sex offenders are also transgender. Or, at the very least, we should assume that allowing transgendered individuals to use bathrooms matching their gender rather than one that matches their birth certificate (again, see Gerben's previous post to see why this is not a good solution) will somehow make it easier for child abuse to occur. I'd appreciate if you could explain how it makes things easier for a sex offender.

Incidentally, I can find no studies suggesting a link between Transgendered individuals and Paedophillia.

I don't doubt that this man regretted his experience. However, simply experiencing something first hand does not qualify you as an expert on the subject. I'll freely admit to not being an expert on the topic, my specialty is much more in the region of things that have been dead for millions of years. However, the studies I've found all point to the same general conclusions, which point to Walt Heyer being in an unfortunate minority.

References:
[1] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false
[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20461468
[3]https://www.skane.se/Upload/Webbplatser/USIL/Dokument/Sjukhusbibliotek/Johansson, Annika.pdf
[4]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15842032
[5]https://www.researchgate.net/public...en_1960-2010_Prevalence_Incidence_and_Regrets
[6]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11564029

 

True, though it didn't stop Glamour. (I heard a rumor I've yet to confirm that Jenner is already reconsidering their declared gender.)

That wasn't what I inferred from that argument... Rather, that sex offenders would be able to pretend to be transgender in order to more easily gain access to an opposite-sex facility. While they could pretend to actually be the opposite sex in the first place, that can be more difficult to pull off, and you can't provide so many excuses if the "proof" of fraud is noticed.

But it's not intended to indicate any greater (or lesser) ratio of transgender individuals being sex offenders.

Interestingly enough, one of the lead proponents of gender neutral bathrooms in North Carolina is a registered sex offender. Though, since he's homosexual and as far as I can tell only targeted (underage) boys, letting him into the women's restroom might actually be better than having him go into the men's. Though I don't think he's declared himself as transgender in the first place (just gay), but that could be my lack of complete information on the subject. Nor would he really be emblematic of transgender even if he was one. But that tidbit might also be feeding into the arguments you are hearing somewhat.

That sounds like a much, much more interesting topic. Can we switch to that?

 

@Comissar your opinion on these?; https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/992645470/beasts-of-the-mesozoic-raptor-series-action-figure