The Nerfs I think FW could stand to take if

My idea for Chops is kinda diff:

add more damage to chop blocks, put pseudo-Instability (reduce Chop's HP each time this occurs to even the 50 Nora tempo hit with a certain XX damage max output)

this would make Relic FW/IS BG shines more, making good synergy of Mason abilities. However, this would not be OP since you HAVE to dedicate yourself to Masonry.

FW changed a lot.... I used to see them as late game bloomers, but tbh... nowadays everytime I face FW...I'm so scared they'll deploy Serkan/Lich King first turn... Whereas I would deploy TWO 70-80 nora champs, their lich lords teleports around grabbing sidefonts, putting me in a 30-50 nora disadvantage. Not to mention now they can Rush my sidefonts/midfont via Reinforcement/Utterdarks.

So diff from how I view them a couple years back.

 

What is up with the whisperghast hate? Quick comparative: for 70n, it have 12 dmg, 6 spd, 3-6 rng, 0 def and 44hp. Lets pick champions from the same faction, within the same nora bracket, 70-74n.

Frostvein witch: 73n, 11 dmg, 6spd, 4-6 rng, 1 def, 42hp.
Ghost stalker: 70n, 12 dmg, 6 spd, 2-4 rng, 0 def, 44hp.
Hoarfrost lich: 73n, 11 dmg, 6 spd, 3-5 rng, 0 def, 42hp.
Mysian necromancer: 70n, 8 dmg, 6 spd, 4-6 rng, 0 def, 48 hp.
Toll taker: 74n, 11 dmg, 6 spd, 2-5 rng, 0 def, 44hp.

Is clear its stats are not out of ordinary, there are many competitive champions within the same nora bracket, and definitely nobody would say most of them are OP. If anything, the only stats where the whisperghast stands over any other champion is the range, as it have an effective range of 4 squares at max range 6. All the other champions in the list have either 3 effective squares of range, or the toll-taker, whom have a maximum range 5. As for the rest of the stats, at least one champion equals or exceeds all of them. A last thing to note is champions like the ethereal soldier and bonewing are within the same nora bracket.

Stat wise, simply put, the WG is not broken. Ah, the abilities! That is what made it "broken". Lets see: WG have 3 abilities at base, attack frost, wormhole and BotU. Rather than listing the abilities each champion have at base, why don't we ask, there is any champion with an ability as strong at base as wormhole? Because BotU is not exactly something unique to the WG, and attack frost, as good as it is, is neither exclusive to it. (Frostvein witch and hoarfrost lich have it for starters) That is the question: how strong is actually wormhole? It do have the same CD, ap cost and range than relocate ally, but R:A does not have the same condition requirement of standing over DMZ. Then SP have 2 champions with R:A within the same nora bracket (G'hern overlord and slag overmind), another that is cheaper (voil transporter) and KF also have cheaper unit with R:A, elven strategist. What about relocate: demon in UD?

So, the whisperghast is neither out of ordinary when talking about stats, and although its role is unique within the faction, is not broken either. (A stronger version of wormhole is available in many factions), so what exactly is the big deal? Upgrades? I would love to hear the arguments about that one.

 

I would rather have Lich King lose Oblivion Shield then his damage capacity, you can work around his damage capacity, but an 8 range champion with Oblivion Shield is pretty bonkers. No matter the nora cost.

 

My guess is double deploy if you're player 1 (105 + 45)

 

The other relocators you mentioned are melee with almost null combat capabilities while the whisperghast is a efficient ranged beater with added support.

 

I hope you are trolling here.

 

Huh, right. Still, since being player 1 or 2 is luck based, is not something I take in account most of the time. I get the point, is just something personally do not use to take it into account.

That word again, efficient. I already explained its stats are nothing out of ordinary, and considering what some other champions bring to the table (frostvein witch as quick example), or hypothetical happy scenarios (the hoarfrost manages to re-spawn, or the mysian necromancer is employed against some player who stores lots of nora), the WG is fairly average as for combat capabilities goes. C'mon, the toll-taker have almost the same stats, number by number, but if we considerate the nora imbalance caused by tariff, it leaves the whisperghast far behind in the "efficiency" curve. Lets get real here, the whisperghast combat capabilities are nothing special. What sets appart the WG is not its combat capabilities, but its relocating ability, which I really think is nothing extraordinary. I used to play primary UD, and compared to the DE Priestess (Relocate: Demon > utterdark wormhole), I have a hard time figuring what exactly the WG have that made it so nerf worthy.

Just to end my comment, I think directly comparing runes from different factions is pointless most of the time. If we have to, I think the other champs with R:A are still superior given that 2 of the 4 units named also have relocate: foe, next to all include some form of boost ability (commander, overseer or battlemaster), and then some goodies like illusion of lies or surge: x. Including the base and upgrades, the WG comes into play with 5 abilities in total. The slag overmind and overlord have 5 abilities at base each.

 

That's the thing!
Average combat capabilities -> average cost
Average combat capabilities + direct combat support -> above average cost
Also, I want to point out that the nora adjust should be between 5 and 7 nora in my opinion, not that much.

 

It seems you haven't actually seen him, cause you made 2 big posts without even mentioning his 2 main abilities.
He is a decent combat champ, decent relocator, but on top of that he has despoil and voices. His closest competitor is vielwalker (one of most undercosted IS runes), but he is not defenceless, has boon, 1 more range, and all that even cheaper than her.

 

I, I just do not know. I said its stats are average. When considering the rest of abilities, its combat capability is below the standard set by other champions. Seriously, what does the WG have as for combat capability goes? 12 dmg and 3-6 range. Other than that it does not have much as for combat potential goes. No DoT, no tariff or nora burn. It does not have a disruptive ability like blockade, or soul collection. What in Holiness name made you think the whisperghast have 'average combat capabilities'?

- But, but, it does have average combat capabilities because the other relocate: ally champions are melee!

Ugh. But the other champions are in different factions with different synergy AND HAVE A STRONGER VERSION OF WORMHOLE! Then on top, they have better combat support (do I have to type the list again? relocate: foe, surge: x, whatever), if they have a lower combat capability (debatable), they made up by having stronger combat support potential than the WG.

Just to clarify: I do not think the WG requires any kind of buff. Or nerf for that matter. I just think is balanced and should be left alone. Want to nerf stuff? Witching hour, pain curse, chopping block, DOMINATION (ffs), lich king and so on.

 

Shimaru, I feel what is trying to be put across by people against the Whisperghast, is the fact it has (above) average stats (it is lower in nora cost and has better stats then the others you listed, offensively at least) and also has the ability to relocate a champion, which is not that hard with the FW font bonus and all the DMZ littering the FW meta. Voices in their Head also seriously boosts its combat capability, because unless you can kill it in one turn, walking a melee champion up to it is generally a bad idea. Cast: Despoil is also psuedo nora gen situationally, and a powerful spell-ability otherwise.

I would not consider it broken compared to some of the more recent endeavors of pox, but it definitely makes things like Imp Deceiver look sad (another Whispers support with pseudo ap gen) and is overefficient compared to many things. 3-6 range is very powerful, especially with 12 damage, the problem is it's just so normalized it is not a problem anymore.

 

I alreay stated my opinion.
I never said that whisperghast was OP because the other relocators are melee, I said that your comparison wasn't valid because you wasn't taking into account that difference.

 

/thread.

Why would anyone want to nerf something that "it's just so normalized it is not a problem anymore."?

 

I agree wholeheartedly. Why on earth should we attempt to curtail powercreep in any way? And why should we start by making suggestions to nerf our own stuff when that other guy over there has that other stuff that's way more op than my stuff.

Sometimes someone has to be the bigger man(faction) and open themselves up to being hit first such that the ball gets rolling in the right direction and a stream of balancing nerfs hits everyone.

 

Is not that the objective of this thread? I think plenty of stuff on FW deserve to be hit with the nerf hammer, is just some stuff deserve it more than others.

 

WG can't be compared to G'hern Overseer or Slag Overmind (past:OP, current:not that great). Just saying...

I always believe Voil Transporter is a prime contender to Whisperghast. Diff style tho:

WG: 70Nora, Weak to Ranged, Immune to Spells, and punishes Melee if fail to one-turn.
12DMG at 3-6 RNG
Alt damage: Frost
Anti-Spell [Despoil]
Anti-Melee [Whispers]
Not restricted to DMZ theme as FW font is..DMZ..+Despoil (Weaken Spells v100.0)

VT: 58Nora, Weak to Spells + Melee, does not punish any threat.
Way Cheaper at 58Nora
Faster, at 7SPD
Flight (making him a good 1st turn Drop in some maps like SL)
Anti-Stealth [Detection]
Anti-Range [Evasive 3]
Not restricted to Voil theme as RA:Ally has a universal use

*OLD* Slag Overmind: 74 Nora, Weak to Spells and Melee, but punishes the usage of Melee & Powerturns if fail to one-turn, punishes spells in long-run.
Kind of expensive for an RA unit
Melee, at 6 SPD. Meaning you won't really use him in combat
Anti-Range [Parafeedback]
Anti-Melee [Mindwipe Aura]
Punishes spells [Weaken Spell, making spells less effective for its Nora price tag]
Utility: Illusion of Lies

if you see it like this, you can see that WG is not overly overpowered. But there's just one problem.

Like Slag Overmind, he can turn the table by himself. He doesn't need others like VT needs others to do damage.

WG and *old* Slag Overmind can change the playing field via:

Mindwipe Aura 2 vs Voices in Their Head

Furthermore, whereas Slag Overmind is totally defensive towards Spells, Melee, and Range... WG is a much more offensive figure using 12DMG at 3-6. Allowing him to (1) destroy relics from afar, (2) chip away at enemy's health every turn.

So both of them offers a lot of utility, have a lot of threat range thanks to RA, and whereas Slag Overmind resists powerturns via Weaken Spells and Para Feedback, WG resists defensive strategies as he can also offer harassing via 3-6 Frost 12 DMG.

So he's a lot like Slag Overmind in what he offers to a BG. I'd say tone him down in one of his roles, just like what devs did to Slag Overmind.

eitehr lower the damage to 6-8, or change Voices into say... hidden:dmz? thats also strong. But at least its easily countered. Then, if allowed you can -1 or -2 Nora to him.

 

I thought consensus was that Phase Shift is more important than Voices, but what do I know.

I'd do -2 damage +2 nora to start. That would probably rein him in enough.

 

VotM is so good. Whisperghast could get Dissipate.

 

For what its worth they can remove Whisper of the mind as an upgrade as far as i am concerned.

 

You have to ruin it, do not you?

See, the reason I have not talked about upgrades, and from the very beginning of this whole WG topic I encouraged people to talk about its upgrades is because it would help me to identify those who actually played with or against WG in a consistent basis, and those who are just nerf herding out of their asses. Because those who have faced the whisperghast on a competitive level would talk about phase shift, while the rest would go bonkers over VotH.

Because VotH is a possession effect on a faction with domination. Redundancy anyone?
Because VotH is an ability with range 1-2 on a champion with minimal range 3 and no mischief, or any other self AP generation.
Because picking VotH over phase shift implies the WG will have no defensive abilities at all, and cast despoil is too good to pass by.
Because phase shift have synergy with the rest of the spirit theme, while VotH does not.

Thank you to all of you who said "VotH is too good" and similarly. You have shown your true colours.