Wings Revision

Discussion in 'Ironfist Stronghold' started by doubtofbuddha, Mar 4, 2015.

  1. Iskandak

    Iskandak The King of Potatoes

    1) Missed that, but his sigil ability doesnt proc at range 2, so why give him +1 range (I dont grasp why they changed his second upgrade set line tbh)?
    2) I know, still liked the old 1 better, nerfed the range and removed opportunist + removed the aoe on her just to give her + 1 speed. I liked the old 1 more.
    3) to make a lot of the Wings cheaper, they removed a lot of abilities aside from just decreasing sigil costs. (or added in the case of obsidian)
    4) Ok I exaggerated. And I didnt count the Ivory wing as a potential dmg dealer, more as a support unit (in which case the Ivory sigil doesnt make any sense, just feels meh)
    5) I agree

    Just to clarify my nr 3 statement: Cerulean wing's sigil ability changed, they removed bold, and some other stuff I cant remember. While his sigil dropped 3 nora, the champ on the whole dropped 20 nora. although for a 7 speed he now is quite cheap, with 45 health and no real defense, he is a hit and run champ (like his abilities) but my game experience learned me tanks nowadays do the same job, and dont need to spend 8 ap each turn dashing in and out.
     
  2. Iskandak

    Iskandak The King of Potatoes

    Actually the more I look at them, I like them overall more now. The wings that is. I just liked the old scarlet wing and the old obsidian wing better.
    And I'd like the aoe back. those are my 2/3 major problems.
     
  3. doubtofbuddha

    doubtofbuddha I need me some PIE!

    For reference, this is what I am currently running:
    https://poxbase.com/deck/ClYCl3CgpChiCgoCgdCgfc1tCgas5Xs4Bsls7ms4Gs7HsPs87sKr3GrYe1ve_

    Thinking about it a bit more, I think that what I am really missing most in this theme is some sort of aoe/bomb. I think if either the Amethyst or Emerald Wing (preferably Amethyst, to push up its cost a bit more) got its Chain Lightning replaced with Lightning Storm 3 or Scarlet Wing got Fire Bomb (instead of Flame Strike) than I think the theme would be better off dealing with a wider range of situations. As it is now, they are at least somewhat linear and can't deal with the wide range of bgs that the play environment can throw at them right now.

    I also think I agree with you about Obsidian Wing's damage vs. improved range. Its sigil, with Opportunistic Attack, really encourages you to clamp down on your opponent, particularly ranged attackers, and punish them for moving. The additional flexibility from the 1-2 range (1-3 with Emerald Wing in play) is nice, but I think I would prefer a slightly more focused design with less range and more damage.

    @Sokolov, I saw you playing Wings last night. Do either of these things seem reasonable/desirable to you?
     
  4. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I could see Amethyst changing to Storm, tho, as you said, it'd cost more then.
     
  5. doubtofbuddha

    doubtofbuddha I need me some PIE!

    I think that is an acceptable change. 68 points for Static Greeting/Defense 1 with Lightning Storm 3 seems like a good package, and other combinations still seem reasonable. The only one that would probably become unviable is Adaptation/Deflect Electricity (at 81), but I can't see anyone really taking that now anyway.
     
  6. Sirius

    Sirius I need me some PIE!

    Regarding AoE, this is still how I see things:


    That being said, nothing against Lightning Storm. To be fair, I should playtest first, because 68 nora Amethyst looks sweet.
     
  7. doubtofbuddha

    doubtofbuddha I need me some PIE!

    Yeah, I think Amethyst Wing with Lightning Storm would fill that role nicely, broadening the theme while still keeping with the general feel of the rune.

    When I first mentioned the options, I was mostly hoping that the Amethyst would get it. The other ones are fair-ish options, but I think the Amethyst would fill the role of artillery the best.
     
  8. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I have a Flightless Griffin coming so that might be a good spot for a long-range type Wing.
     
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  9. doubtofbuddha

    doubtofbuddha I need me some PIE!

    Would AOE and long-range type Wing have to overlap?
     
  10. Dresnar20365988

    Dresnar20365988 Devotee of the Blood Owl

    I like them so far. There is alot of movement shenanigans they can pull off. They play completely unique to anything else in IS. I also like that they only work in theme. I'd like to see more of this.

    Someone said they are missing options. I'm not sure what options they are missing. They have options to do it all IMO. They have an aura and grant aura. They have static greeting for anti stealth. They have tons of mobility. They have viable 2x2. Plenty of alt damage. Clense. Strike/armour counters. Easy to boost (beast). Tailwind if you want to go that way. They are missing a dedicated tank, IMO that is fine. They aren't supposed to be tanky.

    Emerald wing is the mvp right now IMO. Grant teleport 2 and swap mean you get the right rune in the right place at the right time. 12 base damage and jolt 2 gives it good dmg out put and it is at the magic price of 75 nora.

    C wing has a better build than before. Entangeling attack on upgrades is a wash as that is its sigil ability and should be changed. I'd replace it with blitz Or scramble. 7 speed and retreat 2 on C wing is the dream realized.

    O wing is a bit confused. I'd remove the extra range and change the sigil. Plus 2 dmg would make more sense on a champ with stun. To make it more interesting I'd add rend to the sigil as well. Reason being you stun a champ there is no reason for it to disengage triggering assault. If they clense they can't move away again not triggering asaault. Opportunistic Assault just makes no sense on O wing.

    I wing is still meh. Just because POV does it better. With the sigil change to only trigger on sigil deploy it does make the I wing a 1x for a heal option.

    S wing is weaker for sure. That's not a terrible thing though imo. At least now I want to take other options. It's still good for its cost in wings. Out of wings and it's questionable.

    P wing needs some help. He still costs to much. I like what it does and it's sigil. The issue is its cost. It needs a 75 nora build. Stab doesn't do a thing for the rune. If we could change one of the 2nd options to cost less and get a 75 nora build that would be great.

    I like the griffin roost. I can now run tailwind on the two griffin riders and get bastion of mobility from the relic. Or drop the griffin riders altogether and get bastion frim the relic. Out of five games using it to trigger sigils made a difference once so there is that too.

    The wing spell needs a cost reduction. 5 points cheaper would make it playable. Maybe a reduction in cost per wing in play?
     
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  11. doubtofbuddha

    doubtofbuddha I need me some PIE!

    Yeah, the only thing I think they are missing is AOE, and it looks like Sok is going to give Amethyst Wing Electric Storm. With that (and maybe some tinkering on Obsidian and Platinum) I think they will be in a pretty fun spot. Not OP but very playable.
     
  12. Dresnar20365988

    Dresnar20365988 Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Wings aren't tier 1. They weren't before either.

    Their playstyle is unique and alot of fun which is good enough for me.
     
  13. doubtofbuddha

    doubtofbuddha I need me some PIE!

    I would like for them to be Tier 1, or at least close to it.
     
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  14. doubtofbuddha

    doubtofbuddha I need me some PIE!

    Yeah. I am done with wings. They are definitely not good enough. Sorry @Sokolov, I really wanted to like them.
     
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  15. Dresnar20365988

    Dresnar20365988 Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Ouch. Hehe. On to fixing them then? What were some of the issues you had playing them? Are sigil abilities still overcosted?

    The necessity to proc the sigil ability is fairly persistent. It is difficult to run anything else besides wings. Any deploy without a sigil can really shut down a lot of what the deck does.

    C wing needs his first upgrade path to do something. With his sigil being entangle all three options in path one make no sense at all, one of the options is actually entangle. He needs blitz, scramble and one other option in option 1.

    O wing sigil makes no sense either. Opportunistic assault adds nothing to the rune really. A damage boost would be a much better way to go for the O wing sigil.

    P wing just doenst have the umph it needs with its sub 75 nora build. It needs more POWER. If there is anything with less cost than stab please put it in option 2 so you can get piercing shot 2 on him for 75 nora. The sigil is OK, the problem is it doesn't bring enough damage to the party.

    S wing. No clue what to do with it. Give it back opportunistic and 5 speed? Now that sigils can only proc off of other sigils and not deploys you wont see it splashed as much as it was. The nerf to tactical manual will hurt it as well. Maybe that is enough to bring it in line but still allow griffin decks to have some threat?
     
  16. Dresnar20365988

    Dresnar20365988 Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Yeah O wing with 10 damage is pretty useless

    Take enrage off and give it some damage

    No damage in the whole theme. Cant make it work. Please fix. Give wings the Mino treatment or Mynx treatment plz.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2015
    Dhamun likes this.
  17. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Have you tried PS1 build on the P Wing, btw or is that what you mean when you say 75 Nora Build? He doesn't do as much damage then, of course, but it 4-6 for 73 nora isn't bad IMO. Maybe he'd be better with Strike base instead of Precision tho.

    On the other hand, the RNG 6 Piercing Shot 3 is quite fun, especially with some extra damage boosters from other things (I've been running Forge Hammer).

    I may take some of those suggestions in a future revision, most of them makes sense to me in some fashion.

    Also, I am liking the idea of C Wing getting Evasive in that upgrade path.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2015
  18. Iskandak

    Iskandak The King of Potatoes

    I watched you play yesterday. Alle the bonusses they should have during fights are wasted cause you need every last one of them attacking. And while doing that they still cannot compete with just straight up anything else.

    I'd like to pitch in some suggestions as well
    Amethyst - Buddha's suggestion of lightning storm might be nice.
    Amber - dunno, only saw buddha play it, and it died fast
    C-wing - Like it, give it evasive on upgrades and its very runnable prob
    E-wing - Like it, isnt too expensive and actually has dmg.
    O-wing - How about switching around Assault and enraged? enraged on sigil (makes more sense to me) and give +2 dmg on sigil back as well. change back to 1-1 range. make it 85 nora again with full upgrades somehow.
    P-wing - awkward spot. Like his abilities, dont like his cost. Maybe take out the only aoe wings currently have: improve range. this should drop the cost. take out piercing shot 3 and give him + 2 dmg (i never summon him because of his cost tbh so idk how good he is)
    S-wing - Change it back to opportunist, +1 range. -1 speed.
     
  19. Beasts for life

    Beasts for life The King of Potatoes

    After more play testing,they do seem low on the DMG side.
     
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  20. Sealer0

    Sealer0 I need me some PIE!

    Would a working tactical manual help wings out in damage department?

    The nerf was a straight out shoeboxing, it's utterly worthless right now.
     
    sassquatch likes this.

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