Fae/Garu/Cens

Discussion in 'K'Thir Forest' started by Karmavore, Aug 21, 2014.

  1. Xirone

    Xirone I need me some PIE!

    Colossal Boa- HP changed from 65 to 60. Tough 3 removed from 1st upgrade path. Lethargic removed from base. Fearless added to base.

    From my calculations, these changes would add 6 nora to his cost, prohibit him from choosing Tough 3 as an upgrade, and shave some HP off of him. Conversely, he'd be a little quicker every 3rd round and do well against certain fear mechanics. I'm not sure how heavy of a nerf you'd want for him but this something like this sounds good to me.
     
  2. Xirone

    Xirone I need me some PIE!

    Why you say so?
     
  3. EnigmaXIII

    EnigmaXIII I need me some PIE!

    Just from speaking to people, and making some observations
     
  4. Karmavore

    Karmavore MEDIUMALLTIME

    Colossal Boa
    Remove tough 3/2
    Add Fearless/resilient +2/+6
    Hp to 60 from 65
    Scale armour added to base +8
    Remove Colossal. -12



    This reduces his defensive in your face style by a considerable degree, doesn't allow for an easily defined role having to choose between (slightly) defensive, immune to tap mechanics, or just a all around unit.

    Would scale armour just be moot at this point cause people don't want him tanking? Or??
     
  5. EnigmaXIII

    EnigmaXIII I need me some PIE!

    I think if any unit in the game should have Colossal its the Colossal Boa XD. But i think that should be its core ability. It should lose its other forms of defence like tough, resiliant or scale armor, its hp should be MAX 60 maybe even 55 or 50, and maybe give it some form of Regen like Regen 2/3 on upgrades. Not that your idea is bad, logically it kinda still makes sense although boa would still be strong, i just think colossal is more flavorful.
     
  6. Xirone

    Xirone I need me some PIE!

    Maybe not that +1 DMG on the Sun Blossom? Anything to get her price down would be nice.
     
  7. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!

    FAIRIES

    I oppose implementing Fragile Flight in its current form.

    Defenseless decreases each Fairy's HP by up to 6 in direct conflict with the current reliance upon Foment (+7 HP). That said, I believe the following provides a Fae-flavored version of Flight without the decrease in durability:

    Fragile Flight [1N] - (rename "Gossamer Wings" if incorporating the word "Flight" isn't mandatory)
    Has Flying, Lumbering and Retreat 1
    Gains Sentry 3 while Flying
    Becomes Grounded 2 when damaged by a successful melee attack

    Out of context, the math yields a negative cost. In reality, Fairies ignore Lumbering until they are successfully damaged by a melee attack. At that point, they disengage 1 square, but the minimum required AP for retreating to attack range is 5-7. Fairies are diminutive creatures, thus (successfully) smacking them (for damage) with a normal-sized weapon is akin to swatting them. This knocks them to the ground where their tiny bodies can't run very quickly.

    Retreat 1 supports the expected philosophy that a Fairy's ability to escape is a basic survival instinct. It's not as strong as Mobility given that it can only be used once per round, but it prevents melee rushes from overwhelming Fairies with the new Grounding mechanic. Upgrading to Sentry 3 supports the Fairy playstyle, but I'd understand if the consensus is to cap it at Sentry 2.


    Priorities:

    Fae Enchantress - [6 DMG | 7 SPD | 4-5 RNG | 0 DEF | 32 HP]
    Path 1 = Flourish | Mindwipe Aura 2 | Soften
    Path 2 = Abash | Deflect: Magic | Evasive 3
    Base = Attack: Magical | Fairy Dust | Fragile Flight | Tempo
    (Default upgrades = Mindwipe Aura 2 + Evasive 3)

    Provides a better set of options and removes the gimmicky deploy so that the actual Relic can be improved. I don't agree with turning Fairy Dust into a passive ability for the spell. I don't like Spellsurge, in general, because its current form implies that the designated spell was overcosted to begin with.

    Rascal Fairy - [8 DMG | 6 SPD | 3-4 RNG | 0 DEF | 34 HP]
    Path 1 = Knockout | Mark | Sapping Strike
    Path 2 = Initiative 2 | Shadowspawn | Stealth
    Base = Attack: Arrow | Cloak 1 | Fragile Flight | Shadowstrike
    (Default upgrades = Knockout + Shadowspawn)

    Traded range for more HP given the shorter range of Knockout/Mark and addition of Shadowstrike on base. Sapping Strike would provide an option for long range use. Cloak 1 is the only ability I'm iffish about, but it seems flavorful/thematic enough to be appropriate. I'm not overly attached to it, though.

    Sun Blossom - [9 DMG | 6 SPD | 4-5 RNG | 0 DEF | 36 HP]
    Path 1 = Abash | Deflect: Fire | Impairing Feedback
    Path 2 = Burn 2 | Grant: Magical Aura | Illuminate
    Base = Attack: Fire | Blind | Detection 3 | Fragile Flight
    (Default upgrades = Impairing Feedback + Illuminate)

    Juggled abilities (returned a couple) and borrowed Xirone's suggested range. This method allows for the return of Deflect: Fire and Impairing Feedback as alternatives to Abash (no longer base).


    Alternatives:

    Faeguard Nullbeast - [9 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 2 DEF | 57 HP]
    Path 1 = Clamp | Tough 2 | Weaken Spells
    Path 2 = Bodyguard | Massive Leap | Tunnel: Vegetation
    Base = Attack: Physical | Bulwark: Fairy | Evasive 2 | Magic Eater
    (Default upgrades = Clamp + Bodyguard)

    Trade Regeneration 2 for Clamp and drop Race: Beast for Race: Arthropod. He's clearly a Praying Mantis. . .

    Nymph - Race: Elf, Spirit

    I don't agree with her being a part of Fairies. Shift her to Elves/Spirits and remove all forms of Possess. I won't provide detailed changes as she would no longer fall within the themes you're focused on.

    Sprite - [7 DMG | 6 SPD | 3-4 RNG | 0 DEF | 34 HP]
    Path 1 = Force Barrier 2 | Reckless Blast 2 | Stun
    Path 2 = Abash | Charm 3 | Shadow Shift
    Base = Attack: Magical | Favor | Fragile Flight | Trickster
    (Default upgrades = Force Barrier 2 + Shadow Shift)

    These changes are tenuous in that the intention for Reckless Blast 2 is to heal Faeguard Nullbeast while Shadow Shift is for escaping from Force Barrier 2. It adds synergy/value, but one could argue it's too forced.

    Wisp - [10 DMG | 7 SPD | 1-2 RNG | 1 DEF | 41 HP]
    Path 1 = Magical Bomb 3 | Magic Blast | Magic Nova 3
    Path 2 = Magic Acolyte | Phase Shift | Resistance: Physical 3
    Base = Attack: Magical | Flight | Fascinate | Soulsift 1
    (Default upgrades = Magic Nova 3 + Resistance: Physical 3)

    I like parts of Xirone's suggestion, but it shouldn't get Fragile Flight given that it's more Spirit than Fairy. There are a number of ability pairings that could go on base, but Soulsift 1 and Fascinate felt the least restrictive. I added a few HP in exchange for the lower range.

    Fairy Dust [35N] - Target champion gains Wandering 5. Champions within 2 lose Grounded and affected Fairies gain 1 AP.

    If my take on Fragile Flight is well received, this spell is perfect for catering to it. An alternative to AP generation is light healing.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    GARU

    There are a number of issues with Garu such as poor utility options or difficult to access alt damage. At least on of the initial two changes should be Garu Hunter. I recommend asking if you can clump Unassuming Tree into that change (it's such a simple fix!) to make room for another high impact change.


    MANDATORY:

    Garu Hunter - [12 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 1 DEF | 48 HP]
    Path 1 = Pounce 1 | Protective | Startle
    Path 2 = Blitz | Declare Hunted | Still Life
    Base = Attack: Physical | Forage | Hibernate | Omnivore
    (Default upgrades = Pounce 1 + Declare Hunted)

    Nemesis is a terrible ability. These changes move him up to ~70N (on par with Garu Shaman/Mountain Garu) and provide greater flexibility. I dropped Leverage: Beast because he's a Beast Hunter not a Beast Handler.

    Unassuming Tree - Spawns a Garu Hunter, Garu Shaman or Mountain Garu

    I agree with Xirone's suggestion to replace Garu Primitive with Mountain Garu, but not Garu Hunter with Garu Hurler.


    Priorities:

    Elder Garu - [15 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 2 DEF | 63 HP]
    Path 1 = Crushing Blow | Power Attack 3 | Pummel 2
    Path 2 = Guarded: Garu | Prestige | Wisdom
    Base = Attack: Physical | Hibernate | Iron Will
    (Default upgrades = Crushing Blow + Wisdom)

    He's currently a bland beater that doesn't live up to his name. I'd love to see his kit integrate with other Garu more effectively with Prestige or Guarded: Garu. Crushing Blow and Power Attack 3 are less costly alternatives to Pummel 2.

    Garu Medium - [8 DMG | 5 SPD | 4-5 RNG | 0 DEF | 50 HP]
    Path 1 = Blessed | Pawn | Phase Shift
    Path 2 = Impenetrable | Premonition | Relieve
    Base = Attack: Psychic | Helpless | Hibernate | Spirit Projection
    (Default upgrades = Blessed + Relieve)

    Essence Capture isn't an effective option with her reduced damage/range/speed and addition of Easy Target through Helpless. Increase her range and switch default upgrades to Blessed/Relieve. This is more in line with "[carrying] the burdens of old" per her flavor text.
    (Side note: Spirit Projection could use a slight cost reduction, but this is unlikely to go over well until SOTM is adjusted)

    Garu Shaman - [9 DMG | 5 SPD | 2-4 RNG | 1 DEF | 45 HP]
    Path 1 = Cleanse | Divert | Grant: Mobility
    Path 2 = Heal Champion 2 | Invigorate 1 | Paralyze
    Base = Accrue | Attack: Magical | Hibernate | Solidify
    (Default upgrades = Cleanse + Heal Champion 2)

    I've never understood Attack: Electricity (or the old Jolt). Switch to Attack: Magical, instead. Return Solidify to base and replace Heal Champion 3 with Invigorate 1. This provides Garu a budget source of Magic damage (currently tied to Legendary Garu) and a way to address Incorporeal.


    Alternatives:

    Ailurite Brother - [11 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 1 DEF | 50 HP]
    Path 1 = Mountaineer | Pride of Ailur | Soulbond
    Path 2 = Aggressive | Ally: Ironfist Stronghold | Ally: Savage Tundra
    Base = Attack: Physical | Hibernate | Pounce 3 | Reflexes
    (Default upgrades = Mountaineer + Aggressive)

    I'm not a fan of Pride of Ailur being a semi-sandbag. Shifting around his abilities increases his flexibility while making him more useful in FF Garu.

    Garu Den Mother - [7 DMG | 5 SPD | 1 RNG | 1 DEF | 40 HP]
    Path 1 = Aid Defense | Bravery | Protective
    Path 2 = Forage | Omnivore | Sustain
    Base = Attack: Physical | Bestow | Hibernate | Pet: Garu Cub
    (Default upgrades = Protective + Forage)

    Bestow currently forces Bravery as an upgrade. Given how Bestow works, fill the first path with (motherly) combat abilities and the second path with flavorful utility options. I've dropped Rend as she's the only Garu that has it.

    Garu Hurler - [10 DMG | 5 SPD | 2-4 RNG | 1 DEF | 55 HP]
    Path 1 = Hurl Boulder | Preparation | Stone Bomb 1
    Path 2 = Flanking | Pulverize 2 | Punish
    Base = Attack: Rock | Hibernate | Siege
    (Default upgrades = Hurl Boulder + Punish)

    Flavor text: "the peaceful tradition of hurling rocks" . . . give him Attack: Rock!

    As the Garu equivalent to the shot put, Preparation and Punish are a natural fit. The comment that rock hurling has "become a crucial battle tactic" supports Flanking while the sheer strength required for hurling supports Pulverize 2. If you can throw a rock, you can bash someone in the face while holding said rock ;)

    Mountain Garu - [9 DMG | 5 SPD | 1 RNG | 1 DEF | 48 HP]
    Path 1 = Impact Strike | Initiative 2 | Reinforcement 2
    Path 2 = Ally: Ironfist Stronghold | Ally: Savage Tundra | Loyalty
    Base = Aggressive | Attack: Physical | Berserker 3 | Hibernate
    (Default upgrades = Reinforcement 2 + Loyalty)

    This makes his cost similar to Garu Hunter and Garu Shaman for Unassuming Tree. I also consider him a suitable candidate for IF/IS crossover given his flavor text. I returned his old Initiative 2, added Loyalty as an alternative to Ally and Impact Strike because he's using a tree to smack Moga around.

    Ancestral Anger [35N] - Target champion gains Berserker 3 and has a max range of 1 for 6 turns. If target champion is a Garu it also gains Unstoppable for 6 turns and all other friendly Garu gain Protective for 2 turns.

    When I see this spell, I assume one Garu hulks out and charges into battle. As a "freakin' bear!" the only way you stop it is by killing it (Unstoppable!). Garu are a closely knit race which supports gaining Protective due to their "freakin' bear!" buddy rushing into danger.

    This serves as an inverted power turn for Garu in that your opponent must decide whether or not they want to deal with the "freakin' bear!" you just shoved in their face or stall for a round. You might lose a couple Garu, but the ones that survive become "freakin' bears!" for a turn.

    Also, I vote to rename this spell "Don't Poke the Bear" :p
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2014
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  8. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!

    If you remove Colossal, you might as well remove it from every other champion as well. I don't agree with this approach.

    Colossal Boa - [8 DMG | 5 SPD | 1-2 RNG | 1 DEF | 60 HP]
    Path 1 = Regeneration 2 | Resilient | Tough 2
    Path 2 = Cleave | Constriction | Mobility
    Base = Attack: Physical | Colossal | Consume | Lethargic
    (Default upgrades = Tough 2 + Constriction)

    Tap his DMG, DEF and HP, put all defensive upgrades in the same path and return some of his old utility. His purpose has never been to deal damage (pending fixes to Boost/Commander). He exists to put his face in front of the nasties that want to eat your squishies. To that end, provide Constriction and Mobility as options for supporting this. Cleave allows him to apply light damage while he body blocks.

    I haven't considered him a problem for some time, but if we're going to nerf him as a reaction to Boost/Commander complaints surrounding Beasts/Elves (rather than waiting for it to be fixed), let's not ruin his identity and intended function.
     
  9. DarkJello

    DarkJello I need me some PIE!

    Fairies have absolutely pathetic amounts of HPs, and that is compared to other KF champs.

    They are way, way, way too squishy for their cost. Being a squishy theme is fine, IF costed correctly.

    Can any of the top 5 players maintain top 10 while essentially running pure fairies for weeks and weeks and weeks?
     
  10. Karmavore

    Karmavore MEDIUMALLTIME

    I dropped from top 10 to R28 in two days playing fae. It ultimately comes down the opponents BG composition rather than what you're running. You can run everything that you need to be successful in fae, but always fall short if you're facing any sort of rush/aggressive style BG.

    I'm thinking if the efficiency of all champs in fae are increased (reducing nora cost globally via Fragile Flight) would go a long way in increasing the chances of defending and early game rush. Once fae are set up however you have a significant increase in W%, however this requires a mediocre opponent and zero mistakes on your part. I don't think even @TinyDragon could run fae in top 10.
     
  11. Karmavore

    Karmavore MEDIUMALLTIME

    Also another issue I have with fae is the insane amount of range VS melee... Fae have 1 melee champ and that's part of the theme entirely, without ferment on the field you may as well auto surrender.
     
  12. Karmavore

    Karmavore MEDIUMALLTIME

    Good stuff. I'll be considering peoples suggestions heavily.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2014
  13. Karmavore

    Karmavore MEDIUMALLTIME

    It's hard to just add/remove things, especially stat modifications without adhering to the formula.. Work, work work.
     
  14. Xirone

    Xirone I need me some PIE!

    Just to be clear, the current version of Fragile Flight grants Flight (not Flying) as long as the HP minimum is met. For that reason, the champion also has Sentry (when the HP minimum is met). Just wanted to make that clear.
     
  15. Xirone

    Xirone I need me some PIE!

    Yeah, having Foment on one of the only viable melee champs in the theme is problematic, especially since Conclave Warden lost Deflect.
     
  16. Xirone

    Xirone I need me some PIE!

    I thought about how Foment is on one of the few melee champions in the theme and how this should be changed. Below are four changes to the Fae that would move Foment around a little. Obviously, @Karmavore & @Gedden , you're in charge so use any of these ideas at your own discretion (and feel free to modify as needed). It is important to get these champ's HP:NORA ratios closer to 0.50 (or better)!

    [​IMG]
    Conclave Warden- Fragile Flight replaces Flight on base (-5 nora). Foment removed from base (-10 nora). Evasive 2 added to base (+5 nora). Deflect: Psychic added to base (+10 nora).
    Conclave Warden (After Changes)
    DMG: 10 | SPD: 5 | RNG: 1-3 | DEF: 1 | HP: 45
    Base Abilities- Attack: Psychic, Deflect: Psychic, Fragile Flight, Evasive 2
    Upgrade Path 1- Knockback 1, Warding, Guiding Spirit
    Upgrade Path 2- Ensnare, Mental Net, Book Burn
    Estimated Nora Cost: 64-67
    Reasoning- Foment is removed from base and she gains some survivability for the front lines.

    [​IMG]
    Fae Enchantress-
    Fragile Flight replaces Flight on base (-5 nora). +1 DMG added to base (+2 nora). HP changed from 32 to 36 (+4 nora). Fairy Dust re-costed from 12 nora to 7 nora (-5 nora). Summon Prismatic Crystals removed from base (-10 nora). Foment added to base (+10 nora). Cripple added to 1st upgrade path.
    Fae Enchantress (After Changes)
    DMG: 6 | SPD: 7 | RNG: 4-5 | DEF: 0 | HP: 36
    Base Abilities- Attack: Magical, Fragile Flight, Fairy Dust, Foment
    Upgrade Path 1- Cripple, Soften, Combo Attack: Declare Target
    Upgrade Path 2- Evasive 1, Evasive 2, Evasive 3
    Estimated Nora Cost: 67-78
    Reasoning- Fae Enchantress is never played and now, with Foment, she'll play an important role in the theme. Her job is to stay away from battle and use her debuffs when needed. I just wish there were a good way to incorporate the crystals in her artwork/sprite. Oh yeah, the reason Fairy Dust should get a cost decrease is because it is inferior to Pin Down in every way and Pin Down is 8 nora (I did bring this up in PCR a while ago but it wasn't changed then).

    [​IMG]
    Sun Blossom- Fragile Flight replaces Flight on base (-5 nora). RNG reduced from 3-5 to 4-5 (-4 nora). Abash removed from base (-10 nora). Detection 3 added to base (+6 nora). 1st upgrade path changed to Abash, Deflect: Fire, Impair Vision. 2nd upgrade path changed to Burn 2, Illuminate, Improve Damage.
    Sun Blossom (After Changes)
    DMG: 9 | SPD: 6 | RNG: 4-5 | DEF: 0 | HP: 36
    Base Abilities- Attack: Fire, Blind, Detection 3, Fragile Flight
    Upgrade Path 1- Abash, Deflect: Fire, Impair Vision
    Upgrade Path 2- Burn, Illuminate, Improve Damage
    Estimated Nora Cost: 65-72
    Reasoning- These changes make her feel more like her former self. I really like the idea of her having Impair Vision! Detection 3 could be downgraded to Detection 2 to shave 2 nora off her cost? Oh yeah, Sun Blossom, thematically, could be designed to be the Foment champion, if you all think Fae Enchantress shouldn't get it.

    [​IMG]
    Rascal Fairy- HP increased from 30 to 36 (+5 nora). RNG reduced from 3-5 to 4-5 (-4 nora). Fragile Flight replaces Flight on base (-5 nora). Poison 1 added to base (+2 nora). Shadowspawn removed from base (-7 nora). Knockout removed from base (-10 nora). Shadowstrike added to base (+12 nora). 1st upgrade path changed to Initiative 1, Initiative 2, Shadowspawn. 2nd upgrade path changed to Knockout, Stun, Pin Down.
    Rascal Fairy (After Changes)
    DMG: 8 | SPD: 6 | RNG: 4-5 | DEF: 0 | HP: 36
    Base Abilities- Attack: Arrow, Fragile Flight, Poison 1, Shadowstrike
    Upgrade Path 1- Initiative 1, Initiative 2, Shadowspawn
    Upgrade Path 2- Knockout, Stun, Pin Down
    Estimated Nora Cost: 69-76
    Reasoning- These changes slightly lower his cost and streamline the champ. Currently, this champion has two pricey "on-deploy" abilities that he is forced to have. With these changes, you choose which "on-deploy" ability you want. As a note, Poison 1 could easily be changed to Weary if you all like that better.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2014
    Etherielin and DarkJello like this.
  17. Ravagous

    Ravagous New Member

    Can I just suggest that maybe garu chosen should have amp magic switched with impenetrable. That way you can run protective garu and impenetrable at once, and seeing as there is almost no magic damage in garu I'm pretty sure it would benefit them.
     
  18. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!

    References were made to Arctic Flight so given the lack of clarification I assumed the worst :S

    I'm glad we're on the same page regarding Sentry, but I still don't agree with the inclusion of Defenseless in Fragile Flight. It exacerbates the need for Foment which is counterproductive to your desire to increase its availability.

    (I've snipped my earlier comment regarding Fragile Flight and Sentry 2)

    Conclave Warden
    I like the durability changes, but don't agree with removing Foment, entirely. I'd prefer it moved into an upgrade path. I plan to push for non-global ability buffs that reduce the range of abilities like Foment/Hearten to 10. Vitalize already experienced a similar change (although the new range is far too restrictive at 5). In anticipation of something being changed, having a mix of short/mid/long range Fairies with Foment will provide the most flexibility.

    Fae Enchantress
    I can't support this as you've left an upgrade path with ranks of Evasive unchanged.

    Continuing with the assumption this will be changed in future iterations, I agree with recosting Fairy Dust and dropping Summon Prismatic Crystals, but not with putting Foment on base. It doesn't match her name, lore or any previous iteration of abilities. She's always been a disabler/pacifier, not a buffer. I'm also questioning Combo Attack: Declare Target as it, too, contradicts her role. Mindwipe Aura from my suggestion seems like a better fit.

    Rascal Fairy
    I don't like the pair of Initiative ranks (pick one and commit to it) and see Knockout and Stun as redundant (especially if you still want to give Stun to Sprite). I'd like to see something like Mark or Shadow Shift take its place. I'd also opt for Weary over Poison 1 per your suggestion as it aligns better with a disabler's kit.

    Sun Blossom
    Looks good! I'd agree that Sun Blossom is a viable option for Foment, but in upgrades instead of on base. If that happens, I'd opt to replace Improve Damage as she should only improve one stat at a time.
     
  19. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    I'm gonna end up opening The Hugging Store if I keep reading KF boards. I'm already tinkering with a few fae decks. ^^
     
  20. DarkJello

    DarkJello I need me some PIE!

    Are you one of these fellow KFers??

    [​IMG]
     
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