It has come to my attention that Ferren are still terrible after the recent overhaul. The main problems are: Ferren, in general, are overcosted Ferrens, in general, don't play well within the theme I'd appreciate any suggestions for changing individual Ferren so they work better in the theme Ferren Focus is difficult to pull off Ferren Focus is terrible even when you do pull it off The solution then would be to make Ferren Focus way stronger than it is now, and also give them additional tools to make the mechanic easier to trigger. So right now they mostly rely on Swap-style relocates and soft-CC (Majestic, Frozen, etc.) to pull it off, so we need to improve that, then remove any superfluous stuff from Ferren like Pounce and Opp Assault so they are streamlined Focus machines. So, a quick potential list of changes for Ferren: Change Ferren Focus to - Frozen, Slowed, Stunned (this is much closer to the old Ferren Focus from pre-revamp, which was considered very strong by many players) This iteration removes Sundered in favor of scaling-CC Not sure if Stunned is a good idea, but it is certainly a stronger payoff, and one that could be easily pulled off given how easy it is to apply Frozen and Slowed A "softer" approach would be Frozen, Slowed and Sundered (effectively dropping Distracted relative to the current Focus) Warcry - For AP generation and DMG Force Barrier - To keep people locked in so they can be easily Ferren Focus Relocate: Foe - To easily trigger Focus Relocate: Ally (Ferren have access to a lot of Relocates and Movement abilities already, but maybe they aren't good enough compared to Relocate: Ally) Ferren Brawler, for example, could have MA 1 move to U2, so it'd be 8 nora cheaper and be 58 nora base Additional consideration Force Detection and Shatter on base for some Ferren (not sure which, a quick glance doesn't reveal good candidates that aren't already ability bloated) Adjust Ferren Hideout so it is a cheap form of spot-relocate (maybe 25 nora and restrict to Ferren only) Make a couple "OP" ferren that are one-man armies so they have lynchpin runes to play around I don't like this all that much, since I like that they all have a similar stat line and reflects their feel, but this would definitely help them by having some champs that can stick around a bit more and be the keystones of the deck (think Ferren Alpha ala Kanen Alpha) I am not saying this is going to happen, particularly since I just finished revamping Ferren. Just opening for discussion.
I don't really like the idea of crutch runes, but the other changes seem good. The only problem with frozen is against ST, it will either be useless or will have a very bloated ability text.
I like the idea of ferrens being a debuff theme, its just that (as pointed out) its hard bc having something like stunned/sundered first wouldn't allow it to stack and may be too powerful but having it last seems counterintuitive. Perhaps move it away from meaning your next attacks do more damage to incapacitating the enemy? Eg blinded/confused Just spitballing but it would be cool for a theme to be hard to kill as long as they keep attacking.
Anyway, doing all of these, IMO, would make Ferren completely OP, but they are the kinds of things that seems like it'd address the problems Ferren have as they were described to me. I'd like to hear if people agree with the problems, and also what people think of the solutions.
Making Shatter/Detection in "theme" is not a requirement at all. It has been a long while since those were mandatory, specially after the Stealth nerf (yes, I'm up to date with stuff that goes on). I can see the case for Shatter, but if instead of putting a Shatter champ on every theme you buffed Rebound a bit, this would be a non issue. As for Ferrens specifically, since I don't play anymore I can't really make suggestions or give ideas.
Actually, equipment is seeing more play recently due to new abilities and interactions that involve equipment. There are multiple Provision: X abilities now, and both KF, FS and SL all have a bit more of an equipment slant going than they used to. And there are a few themes that are fairly common to see which run a decent amount of Stealth. So I can definitely see why some people consider it more important than it might have been in the past.
I still find the idea of every theme having access to every counter rune/ability a really bad move, cause it makes the decks too homogeneous.
Well, that's a different argument altogether, and one I am more in agreement with. Is there a reason you don't feel this way about buffing Rebound then? Which would also have the same effect in some ways? Like, I'd rather give themes Shatter on base or upgrades, which would cost them nora on a champ, than give every theme in the faction spell-based Shatter, which costs nothing other than a slot until needed.
Yeah, because our opinion on this matter is probably with the minority. People have been pushing for every theme having access to Shatter/Detection since I joined (7 years ago? Wow). So that would please those guys. Thats all. I, for one, think that if a player wants to run a "full themed deck", it would lack on certain areas (specific counters present on some champs) because it would be very strong in others (theme synergies, etc.).
Personal preference... Frozen, Slowed, Stunned Frozen, Slowed, Sundered Force Barrier Relocate: Ally Warcry Relocate: Foe Force Detection and Shatter on base for some Ferren or Rebound slight buff Adjust Ferren Hideout so it is a cheap form of spot-relocate (maybe 25 nora and restrict to Ferren only) Make a couple "OP" ferren
I actually don't think Ferren as a whole are terribly overcosted One that is; Snowspinner I really, really don't like Quest: Support Ally on him because the ranks of regeneration it grants will literally do nothing to save him. He has 39 base hp (49 with bonus) and 0 defense. And not to say that healing is useless, but in this particular champ's case, I feel he (or she? I can't tell if it has boobs) would do better without. I feel focusing on terrain generation, usage of that terrain, and AP generation would be the best way to go. U2 already is dedicated to this but the only reasonable choice is Orb of Frostfall 2. Snowstrike on a 6 dmg support champ is just bad. Orb of Frostfall 1 has a pretty limiting range and just opens up the opportunity for AOE spam. Orb 2 is, imo, a great choice on this particular champ because it gels very well with Hidden:Arctic on Pouncer, Brawler, and Wanderer as well as Arctic Gift, which is a nice way to bump up their low damage, and Snow Shroud. (As a side note, I actually love the fact their damage is generally terrible and you have to boost it through relocation and whatnot.) Maybe replace Snowstrike with something like Frost-Fall? The issue is it begins to get pricey for such a squishy support champ! So cut out healing. No Quest: Support Ally and no Heal Champion. Cut down its range. Ferren may not have the best range in the game, but this champ shouldn't be the one trying to give it to them. So, a quick attempt at making sense of the mess above: Snowspinner does not need to be healing The best approach with this champ is to streamline into a terrain and AP generating machine. Terrain goes well with: Hidden: Arctic, already found on Ferren Arctic Gift It's ST, there are ways to make use of snow/ice AP is useful for: Getting the crucial attacks in to trigger Focus Swap, Leap, and other evasive and annoying shenanigans It makes champs do stuff Hopes this helps at all!
Take that all back. Just saw dumpraiser using it and he utilizes it much much better than I do or thought possible I don't know, it looks like Ferren are pretty runnable
Two things, Ferrens should receive a manual cost adjustment because their racial is hard to pull off. Second, maybe Ferren Focus should not proc off of basic attacks only but also non-basic, non-AOE types like Feint or Shred Defense.
The heal is the reason i like snowspinner and although the regen hasn't done much, the party heal gained after has been useful.
I think Ferens would benefit from: Call of the hunt/reloacte: ally Grant: tunnel snow Range 2-4, ,3-5/6, 5-7 champion (when I played so did I have melee range or 4-5 as my only options). Motivate
