"I want to complain about Cleansing Emerald being moved from SP"

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by kalasle, Sep 21, 2017.

  1. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    It balances out the bonus.
  2. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    As in, removing Cleansing Emerald balances out how good the SP bonus is?
  3. MrBadguy

    MrBadguy Guest

    Think he means FW bonus and Xulos.
  4. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Two birds, one stone.
  5. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    I'm going to tell Hash that SP got spot cleanse then dead air for about 12.7 seconds and say "but it got taken away".

    100% he'll come make a rage post.
  6. Bondman007

    Bondman007 I need me some PIE!

    I rescind all of my statements about FF SP being in a bad spot. TinyDragon started playing FF SP cyclops and is 39-1 in his last 40 matchups including several against Hermaios.
    Cleansing Emerald what again? What was the question?
    DiCEM0nEY likes this.
  7. MrBadguy

    MrBadguy Guest

    Cyclops are beefy, my lad. Beefy wins a lot of games nowadays.
  8. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    Its strength certainly has nothing to do with firecase, I'm sure.
    MaruXV likes this.
  9. MrBadguy

    MrBadguy Guest

    So is this full clops, structsclops module or just an SP BG with a lot of cyclops? I'm confused now based on this comment and what bondman called a cyclops bg.
  10. Bondman007

    Bondman007 I need me some PIE!

    Its mainly a bunch of clops but he runs firecase and baby slag... as far as I know, thats the only non-clops in it...I havent seen even a Mika
  11. MrBadguy

    MrBadguy Guest

    I watched him drop a Quarry. Pretty sure this is some kinda frankenclops BG with spicy techs.
    DiCEM0nEY likes this.
  12. Bondman007

    Bondman007 I need me some PIE!

    Whatever it is he is pwning people...
  13. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Tiny would be unstoppable if he ran stronger decks anyways. I always feel like he is trolling when I watch him play.

    I'm not sure after the bulwark changes, but voli seemed really strong even after the remove.
  14. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Is a deck not a theme deck if it runs basic tech?
  15. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    I prefer the distinction is between active and passive bonuses.

    In stat terms, I would say that UD is harder to play than ST because the UD bonus needs to be actively used well to get value where as the ST bonus is a constant. SL is only partially a constant because it can be bypassed by spells and many abilities, KF i'd say is active.

    In nora terms it is more complicated, since + nora is always helping you but nora is also a skill dependant resource - it will gain more value in skilled hands.
    DiCEM0nEY likes this.
  16. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    FW is also game state, along with game length. Using a spell equip or relic has a negative synergy with the FW bonus.
  17. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    Badger: It depends on the level of abstraction. You could conjure up specific scenarios where champs are in certain positions relative to one another and say that a bonus is or isn't relevant, but if you zoom out a bit you could look at the UD and ST bonuses in terms of breakpoints, that is, the number of hits that it takes to kill a champ given a combination of bonuses in the game. Of course, the wide variety of champ stats makes it impossible to work with the idea of breakpoints in the context of specific scenarios (and this leads to one important skill in pox - making the most efficient use of your board's damage potential so that you don't end up using a 20 damage champ to get the last hit on an enemy that would have died from 2), but it lets us look at the UD, ST, and SL bonuses in simple ratios where none is more active than any other: where champions in a "standard" game (ie. both decks are from the pool of KF, IS, SP, FW, and FS) might expect a standard ratio of ~4 hits = 1 kill, playing UD might give you a ratio of ~3:1 which bumps back closer to 4:1 v SL or ST, who might benefit from a ~5:1 ratio against non-UD players. Although we can't really calculate the ratio without having a specific board state to work with, we can intuit that that ratio will increase or decrease depending on the relative/absolute number of champs on the board as well as their position. Again, this abstraction is necessary because theorycrafting at a more specific level becomes difficult to apply universally.

    What resources do not gain more value in skilled hands?

    Dice: Can you explain exactly what you mean by game state? When I say board state, I am referring specifically to the absolute number of champions in position to have an effect on the outcome of the next round, on each side. There is an important distinction between null synergy and negative synergy that you seem to be missing. The only faction where your statement doesn't apply is FS because their bonus is not linked to champions. SP has a slightly negative relationship with spells/relics/equips because of the compounding/exponential nature of the bonus as the nora gains are reinvested in champs.
  18. MaruXV

    MaruXV Corgi Lord of FW

    tiny himself said that clops bg is weaker and he wanted to use it insteaed of elves in tournament. That doesnt mean he cannot win with that, he is a great player and he could win most of his games vs <2000 rank players with a random generated bg of commons. Also being just few big players on now, anything they play stomps most of other players and its then perceived as "strong". Davre is winning a lot with a fw/ud vothsair bg , hermaios won 195/5 with sp/st split, tiny wins with clops, im sure if iPox came back with one of his bgs it would stomp people for a while. Like when prince started to play the kf/sp rush. he beated almost everybody. or when live123 comes in with seasong combo, stomps poeple for an afternoon, then disappears again. Ive seen him beat tiny too. Pox is in a very good state of balance. Not perfect, but good, so a lot of options are viable. If Ballballer was playin constantly, im sure we would still be complaining about some SP bg stomping 90% of the players, even without cleanse emerald.
    Woffleet, Etherielin and nepyonisdead like this.
  19. Vash Dragneel

    Vash Dragneel I need me some PIE!

    Haven't played since Emerald got changed. Makes me worried about Hyaenids, one of my favorite bgs.
  20. free20play

    free20play I need me some PIE!

    haven't bothered either.
    cleansing emerald being removed was a huge nerf to many of the less popular shattered peak themes.
    what i don't get is why the devs don't just make racial/thematic versions of cleansing aura/cleanse that'd only work for x races only. ( and classes! can't forgot about classes!)
    stuff like a cleansing aura that'd only work for hyaenids/djinns and so on, and if thats not enough also put in restrictions based how many units of those races are in play. (those are just some ideas)

    p.s. hyaenids are also really hard to win with due to all the direct and indirect nerfs they've been receiving over the years.
    like i still haven't forgiven sok for the shrunken changes that happened awhile back.
    and no matter what anyone else says it was a flat out nerf. since i personally never cared for the -negative speed portion of it then rather the halved dmg part that saved my hyaenids lives countless times from death.
    and it doesn't help that most people can see what ur doing with hyaenids a mile away due to how simple and obvious they are.
    also does anyone else feel like there are too many hyaenid/djinn runes to run?(also again it doesn't help that a lot of them are meh/subpar due to continuous nerfs)
    maybe i'm crazy because i can' t ever seem to make enough space in my bgs for all of the hyaenid/djinn runes. ( you know it would be nice if we had different game modes with increased/decreased deck space here! )
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017

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