If memory serves me correctly, the KF bonus was to give KF increased mobility so that they could out maneuver the opponent (thus effectively putting long range units into position and putting melee units where they need to be). Maybe there's a way beyond the realm of SPD to achieve this effect? Nothing nice and straightforward really came to mind to me, but I thought I'd share my 2 cents.
What? a 1-2 champion is always better than a simple melee, and now 2-x champions can temporarily bypass range hate.
Hmmm what if they kept the +1 spd ff and gave for the split domain vegetation or the ability that gives ranged defense in vegetation?
Camouflage is a bad ability and I'm not entirely convinced by the consistent applicability of domain: vegetation. It's a fairly common terrain type but I'm not aware of a ton of ways to generate it in a pinch.
Originally, KF champs came in two basic flavors: Long range with low-ish damage (to start with), and rapid-response melee. Elven Archer and Elven Ranger kind of epitomized this; Centaur Archer and Mtn Garu filled similar roles in similar ways. Teleporters live Elven Mage or Apprentice Mage were the hit-and-run harassing units, and melee beater units and roadblock meat-mountains were things like Elder Garu. The idea was that initiative and high speed (lots of AP per turn) would offset the generally low damage output or low HP of the main units. Mobility (the ability) was added as a font bonus later -- units with mobility were quite highly valued, as it used to be a supremo thing to have. Now that there are a ton of ways to disengage (stun, knockout, paralyze, pacify), it's not so valuable as it used to be. With the advent of lots of init units, the init-spam became overwhelming, and initiative was nerfed. With the onset of lots of long range mega-hitters and ways to pump up damage over the normal output curve, range got nerfed in several indirect ways... range has made a return to dominance, and with it, complaints about KF have returned to their previous levels. I, and others, maintain that the fundamental problem is that KF champs are (in general, and with notable and much-hated exceptions) A) expensive for what they bring to the field, B) Low on HP and inherent defenses, and C) don't put out as much damage per hit as many other champs in other factions. The point of the KF speed/AP bonus is to compensate for the "lightness" of the general/standard KF champ. The problems: 1) Those few and hated exceptions benefit so much from the extra SPD/AP that they become way, way too powerful (hence the hatred); 2) The potential for the SPD/AP bonus to become insanely above the curve in splits has required that the split bonus be scaled back to the point of irrelevancy (hence the prevalence of KF/X builds with most champs from the other faction and most spells/equips/relics from KF). Removing the KF spd/ap bonus and replacing it with something else would require rebuilding and/or recosting a huge number of the standard KF champs. Returning the KF bonus to its former glory would result in insanely OP KF "meta" and a whole bunch of stupidly OP KF splits. It is my opinion that the real problem is that a whole bunch of champs from other factions have been released that basically incorporate KF-like speed into their base build - it's not that the KF champs have become worse, it's that the KF champs CANNOT grow in power in the same way as the other factions' champs, because of the speed bonus. I don't know how to fix it, but I think that's (at least in part) the problem.
Yes I agree, I believe that if our champs we're built with the same cost of other champs and given the same speed without suffering from a "pre nerf" (the way some UD champs used to) and completely ignored the additional speed I think it would provide better costed champs. IS is always complained about and I think this is due to having pretty much no faction bonus to go with their stats, hence no pre nerfed stats. Champions used to be slow, many of them having 6 spd however now the majority of meta has 7 spd in all its factions at barely any cost. And so the difference in speed from them having 6 speed and us being able to have 7 freely and 8 for a little bit more seems a distant memory. While we had a little less damage we were able to pile out 2 attacks a turn more easily than other lower speed champions, and have some left over for abilities now with all the 7 speed champions piling out higher damage than Kf at the same rate it just makes ours feel a little held back as we don't see to benefit as much. Perhaps instead of our faction bonus being analysed maybe attention should also be turned to some of the higher speed champions
In split faction how can you possibly choose between TP or attack on the elven mage, thats not how he works!
Lets be realistic, nothing is happening. KF bonus is "good enough" atm, changing it would require an insane amount of rework, like multiple expansions worth. Until one of you can think of a realistic fix, nothings happening
My idea was for split to have +2 ap and FF bonus to stay the same (Look at it as one of the +1 aps becoming +1 spd). That way splits would get help and not be 25% power of FF.
Just to clarify for myself, was this not the bonus Pre-SOE/Early SOE? I'm almost certain this existed once before.
I'm not going to quote Red Dain's post cuz it would waste space. But it's spot on. There are tons of arguments against it. And I'm not saying that all the arguments are without merit. But few of them actually relate to the root cause and effect the way Red's post does. Without knowing the history and evolution of the game, and KF's bonus, it becomes nearly impossible to formulate a coherent argument. Range "dominance" is more of an opinion than a truth, however. I admit it can certainly feel hard to overcome range if you're not prepared for it. Nobody will argue that. But anti-range (or anti-damage) is abundantly prevalent in all non-KF factions that it tips the scales considerably. In case anyone got the idea that I was in favor of bringing back the old way of handling speed in KF, I'm not. I only brought it up to illustrate how the game used to be. And more importantly, the way it changed with SOE. In order to understand the scale of the change to AP gain and speed, you have to understand where the design curve went awry. That change was the root cause for all the problems in KF and in KF/X. So I believe that in order to arrest the issue now, and fix it, we all need to hold this transitional change in mind when coming up with solutions. It is what I meant when I said that I'll have to put faith in Gedden and Co. to figure it out. It will take someone with the full range of experience to be able to fix this issue. Is KF's ff bonus terrible right now? No. But the split bonus is just horrendous. Are KF champs built with the "pre-nerf" to speed so that they will be "OK" in ff? Definitely. And does this ultimately cause them to be overcosted for their utility? I believe so. But it's hard to prove. Other than Sizzle Chest (Wilderkin Snakedancer), which cost-utility-efficient and anti-range runes are there in KF? Ospryan Valkyrie? Squirrel? Sizzle is the best. At least the most widely used. Put him in KF/X and he sucks. Sizzle is great, but put if anything gets close...he's toast. Quickly. He's got tools to help, but a lot of what KF brings to the table is to control or annoy...and once that veneer of efficacy breaks down or wears off....nothing. I'm not arguing that KF is weak. I'm arguing that it's imbalanced. I'd much prefer balance to strength.
KF's best answer to good range is having better range imo I used to support the idea of KF champs having their ff bonus in splits, but I no longer think it would good, because if KF champs would get their ff bonus plus a split bonus, it probably would end up being too strong. I think, with our ff bonus being good and our split bonus being a little to weak, but still good enough to play KF/x decks, this is not the time for changing our bonus. DOG are prolly better off fixing bugs atm, our bonus can wait a little longer
KF's best answer to overpowered range units is either A) shrine rush (questionable strategy), B) Gnarlwood Tanglefoot and Deadwood Strider, or C) Gang-tackle with cheap melee. Oddball options include tricks with slam/traps/knockback (map dependent, you can get some good chasm kills), or various relocate/vortex/debuff options.
However, enuff is correct in terms of priorities - KF is playable, KF/x splits do exist and can be viable, and there are other things that are more important to deal with... such as the fact that I CANNOT PLAY THE FRIGGING GAME...
As in the game application won't launch for you? Or as in you suck at the game as much as I do (Read: The game has become too much of a: If you can't deal with X, you lose). Where X is any number of wonky runes and combos that just make it impossible to overcome....
KF bonus pre-SOE: FF +2 spd SF +1 spd. In that time the upgrade systen let us upgrade stats too, so, every FF KF was made with 11 or 9 or 7 base speed to became 13, 11 or 9, and every SF KF was made with 12, 10 or 8 base speed to became 13, 11 or 9, when champs had max ap = their spd and got ap per turn = 1 + half theis sped rounded up, meaning 13 spd 8 ap, max 13, 11 spd 7 ap, max 11, and 9 spd 6 ap, max 9, per trun. When SOE rework the stats, he change the spd formula to be spd = ap per turn, and spd +4 the max ap, then the FF KF bonus was reworked too, to fit it perfectly, but without stats upgrade systen, now we cant have the truly FF KF bonus, with is do not need to spend CP upgrading spd, and spend it on other stuff, today, we no not have extra CP to spend, because we all, KF or not, have to pick 2 from 4 aditional perks. That bring us 2 problens: 1 - KF still cant have spd 9, because of pre-creation-nerf-champ to fit +1 spd FF KF, SF KF can have the max ap that champ had pre-SOE (11, 8 or 9) but it lack the +1spd bonus, because it will stack with all non KF champs with spd 7 and 8 already. 2 - KF champs in SF bgs was useless because without the FF KF bonus +1 spd, and without the old upgrade CP systen, we cant upgrade it to a right non 9+ spd. Solutions: - All KF champions have a +1 spd upgrade, and a -1 spd nerf. This way, if you are not FF KF, you can still have the FF KF spd in your KF champ, at the cost of one perk, i am not a fan of it, but its what the old systen was for, a right spd champ at a cost of lille CP on upgrade systen, this way, all KF champs will work fine like pre-SOE. - Have balls and change FF KF to +2 spd and SF KF to +1 spd, with nerfing all champs with -1 spd and add a perk being +1 spd. lol, this one is crasy shiet, but i gess its the only way to KF bonus do what it is supose to do: have more free CP to upgrades, or little free CP to upgrades and right spd when FF, and when in SF have a little more CP to upgrades or right spd. - No change in the bonus, but change all champions spd in the game, to only some champs outside KF can have spd 8 some how, and less then half champs outside KF can have spd 7 some how, and that i include things like ready, pace, IS shinire bonus and stuff like it. - Back spd formula from pre-SOE, was not that complicated to understand that the number of your spd stats was the max ap you can have, and you get 1 + half of that number rounded up ap per turn, instead of the curient spd formalula that is the number of your spd its what you get ap per turn, and your max ap its that number +4, that way you can set the FF KF to +2 spd and SF KF to +1 spd, and set KF champs to have spd up to 12 (to fit today spd 8 with FF KF and SF KF) and non KF champs to have spd up to 12 (to fit today spd 7 on non SF KF and spd 8 in SF KF).
The original idea of KF as the speed faction was tailored for rush bgs. Some of the first spells too (see vortex, clairvoyance) The problem is that a rush bg (especially shrine rush bgs) are not considered a legitimate playstyle and degraded if they are working. Now speed serves as a efficacy boost just like the ud/sl/st bonuses the original intention is mostly gone. Why not change the bonus to something completly different ? The champs of KF are revisited anyway now.
