just an info gathering thread. what do you guys like about monks/ferren. where do you think they should go. what are they lacking. what runes do you feel should be adjusted or improved.
Do you see any possibilities to have a Ferren racial? Today it's like they were only monks. There is no flavour aside of the visual difference with Jakei monks. I really dislike NKD and seeing the awesome Ferren Focus gone for it, makes me sad
Edit: it was fixed ferren what i like, mobility with swap and ferren hideout what they are lacking, theres a lot left to be desired from the range damage options theres not really an option to kill something other than attacking it, almost all of them have attack physical which is no bueno i think some of them need to be changed to have focused roles a lot of them seem to be just melee champs with damage mitigation abilities, (reflexes,NKD) Freezing aura should be base on ferren master imo the upgrades on a lot of them just suck or are not interesting ranks of swap and reflexes NKD is superboring and forces you to play a certain way i think a good way to start is fixing NKD and giving them good ranged options. other than that i have no good suggestions right now ill post some here if i come up with some
well ferren focus was likely removed for other reasons, I wasn't on the council at the time and st took a really large beating to "simplify" a lot of it's mechanics. I don't expect to ever see ferren focus back in it's old form. more then that ferrens already have a large number of abilities on them when you combine NKD, discipline, arctic, and basic attacks there's almost no room left on their card for more abilities. I do expect ferrens at some point to get a more unique role in the monk decks, but I personally wouldn't expect them to become stand alone any time soon, not to say you guys can't make it happen though soko did seem open to the discussion last I heard.
Nohkan do removed from all ferren and replaced with Ferren Focus (When this champion makes a successful basic attack, one of the following debuffs are applied in order: Frozen 1>Frozen 3> Sundered 1> Awestruck 1> Paralyzed 2). If the target has Arctic, Frozen is replaced by Slowed. Kas Monks disciplines changed to "The next basic attack this champion makes causes X for 4 turns. If the target was Frozen or X, all friendly Monks gain 1 damage for 6 turns"
the complexity of that ability was the exact reason it was removed. I would focus the discussion away from that particular issue if you want to see results.
do monks have a lot of awestruck sources? I can't think of many without dipping into spells, which may be nice in it's own right since it brings them out of the shoebox.
No, monks dont have a lot of awestruck sources, but ST as a whole does, and not only from spells. Its nice to see synergistic decks rather than "put together all monks and go play".
Ferren hideout has no interaction with Ferren which is kinda sad. I'd like to aim for some kind of Ferren exclusive benefit.
(Copypasta of vision for Monks/Ferren/Kas with changes per recent comments/patches) Separate Monks, Ferren and Kas into separate entities: Nohkan Do = requires the Monk class Ferren Focus = given to all Ferren Kas Disciple = given to specific ST Monks Abilities Nohkan Do - (2 ranks) Activated (CD 2/1, 0 AP): For 2 turns, attacks against this unit automatically miss and this unit loses 2 AP. Does not trigger if this unit is Paralyzed, Stunned or has less than 2 AP. (Works while Distracted if activated before Distracted was applied) (See NKD discussion) Ferren Focus (offensive) - "Muay Thai" Passive: successful basic attacks apply Frozen 1 (Slow 1) > Frozen 2 (Slow 2) > Distracted 2 > Sundered 2 Awestruck/Frozen/Stun were problematic in the same debuff chain. This order of debuffs gates them in such a way as to be appropriate in both 1v1 and group engagements with Sunder providing the extra DMG required for particularly sturdy champs. Putting the duration of Sundered at 2 turns prevents the damage bonus from carrying across turns. Kas Disciple (defensive) - "Wing Chun" Passive: Whenever this champion is targeted by a basic attack, the attacker becomes Frozen 2. If the attacker is already Frozen, it gets -1 DEF for 2 turns. (See Vulnerable) The goal is to provide a strong incentive to retaliate after being attacked. As with Ferren Focus, Frozen 2 prevents the SPD debuff from carrying across turns. It will provide -1 ATK/DEF before the stacking -1 DEF, though. (Note: a range cap for triggering the debuffs might be necessary) Together, these would replace the Discipline set of abilities and help prop up older abilities like Savage Exploit. Sprinkle it here and there for synergy without forcing Monk exclusivity. Ferren Champions Ferpent - [8 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 1 DEF | 50 HP] Path 1 = Mobility | Swap 2 | Tunnel: Snow 3 Path 2 = Evasive 2 | Dodge 1 | Ferren Focus Base = Arctic | Attack: Physical | Constriction | Trail: Snow (Default upgrades = Tunnel: Snow 3 + Evasive 2) Mobility/Swap used to be viable options in a variety of BGs. Make them optional to Tunnel: Snow 3 and drop Snow-Fall (doesn't make sense) for the Evasive 2, Dodge 1 and Ferren Focus. Ferren Assassin - [10 DMG | 7 SPD | 1-2 RNG | 0 DEF | 40 HP] Path 1 = Escape | Hidden: Arctic | Stealth Path 2 = Assassinate 1 | Domain: Shadows | Savage Exploit Base = Arctic | Attack: Physical | Ferren Focus | Flash Bomb | Nohkan Do 2 (Default upgrades = Escape + Assassinate 1) Provide Domain: Shadows (natural choice) and Savage Exploit as damage alternatives to Assassinate 1. Lower his DMG to reflect the optional +2 and the return of Ferren Focus. He clearly has chains on his weapons, so give him 1-2 RNG. I loved Dragging Attack for its utility in theme, but this is a nice compromise if that's not coming back. Ferren Brawler - [9 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 0 DEF | 42 HP] Path 1 = Hidden: Arctic | Multiattack 1 | Reflexes 2 Path 2 = Forage | Pace | Swap 2 Base = Arctic | Attack: Physical | Ferren Focus | Nohkan Do 1 (Default upgrades = Reflexes 1 + Pace) Cap Reflexes at -35%, drop to NKD 1, and add Pace as a mechanism for increasing survivability (if NKD is active). He'll have bursts of melee survivability followed by a turn of exposure. Ferren Dancer - [9 DMG | 7 SPD | 3-4 RNG | 0 DEF | 38 HP] - Class: Bard Path 1 = Abash | Charm 3 | Stun Path 2 = Dispelling Blows | Divert | Swap 3 Base = Arctic | Attack: Sonic | Ferren Focus | Flourish (Default upgrades = Charm 3 + Divert) Her latest kit is very appealing, but I'd drop Class: Monk and swap Alluring Discipline for Ferren Focus. Even though it costs nothing to add Class: Monk, I'd prefer shifting Ferren away from the 100% Monk status. She doesn't have NKD, so I don't consider her a Monk. Ferren Master - [10 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 2 DEF | 42 HP] Path 1 = Coordination | Riposte 3 | Rapid Attack 3 Path 2 = Antagonize | Train Strike | Detection 1 Base = Arctic | Attack: Physical | Ferren Focus | Freezing Aura | Nohkan Do 2 (Default upgrades = Riposte 3 + Train Strike) Arrow Throw overlaps with the existing ranged counter attack Nohkan Do champ, Jakei Mindstriker. Ferren Master has always been the Ferren tank, and I don't see a reason to change this. Switch to Riposte 3 and it becomes a compelling choice alongside Coordination and Rapid Attack 3 (assuming it'd trigger Ferren Focus for Distract > Sunder > Sunder). Antagonize (used to be base) reinforces the Tank aspect while Detection 1 (same range as Freezing Aura but can be increased) supports the idea that you probably couldn't sneak up on this pro. Ferren Pouncer - [9 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 0 DEF | 40 HP] Path 1 = Hidden: Arctic | Opportunistic | Pounce 2 Path 2 = Forage | Leap 2 | Swap 3 Base = Arctic | Attack: Physical | Ferren Focus | Hit and Run | Nohkan Do 1 (Default upgrades = Pounce 2 + Leap 2) Revert his stats to 0 DEF and 40 HP. He shouldn't be beefier than Ferren Brawler; re-cost accordingly. Improve Damage is great, but I've always considered it out of place. I'd much rather see Ferren Pouncer live up to his name through extreme mobility than serve as a hybrid Brawler/Master buff tank that's better than both. Even Ferren Wanderer is eying this guy with jealousy! Hit and Run replaces Improve Damage to provide Mobility while his paths are focused on AP management from a distance. Ferren Snowspinner - [7 DMG | 6 SPD | 3-5 RNG | 0 DEF | 41 HP] - Class: Shaman Path 1 = Ferren Focus | Savage Exploit | Snow Strike Path 2 = Swap 3 | Heal Champion 2 | Invigorate 2 Base = Arctic | Attack: Frost | Merciful | Quest: Support Ally | Snow Shroud (Default upgrades = Snow Strike + Invigorate 2) Definitely an interesting champ, but the upgrades need to be rearranged to make room for Ferren Focus and Savage Exploit. Drop Class: Monk and swap Snow Strike with Snow Shroud for a pair of offensive/utility paths. The default kit is unchanged, but her options are slightly improved. Ferren Wanderer - [10 DMG | 7 SPD | 1-2 RNG | 0 DEF | 46 HP] - Class: Ranger Path 1 = Evasive 3 | Glorious Leap | Hidden: Arctic Path 2 = Knockback 2 | Pummel 1 | Sword Breaker Base = Arctic | Attack: Physical | Ferren Focus | Melee Specialist 2 (Default upgrades = Glorious Leap + Pummel 1) Revert him to a Ranger with 1-2 RNG. Glorious Leap doesn't synergize well with Nohkan Do because Wanderer WANTS to be hit. This means he needs damage mitigation over damage prevention to properly utilize it. Replace Nohkan Do with Melee Specialist 2 for precisely that reason. Evasive 3 and Hidden: Arctic provide viable alternatives to rushing straight into battle and he's got a big stick so one of his upgrade paths should reflect that. Kas Champions Jakei Adherent - [8 DMG | 6 SPD | 1-2 RNG | 1 DEF | 48HP] Path 1 = Cripple | Piercing Shot 2 | Rapid Attack 3 Path 2 = Blessed | Evasive 2 | Weary Base = Arctic | Attack: Magical | Kas Disciple | Nohkan Do 2 (Default upgrades = Rapid Attack 3 + Evasive 2) Give some of her RNG back by splitting the difference. Her existing abilities are incredibly bland so I've added attrition debufs (Cripple/Weary) and focused damaged (Peircing Shot/Rapid Attack) options that support the new Kas Disciple setup. Blessed returns one of her old options for survivability. Nohkan Apprentice - [11 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 1 DEF | 44 HP] Path 1 = Chill 3 | Damage Shield: Frost 2 | Frost Aura 2 Path 2 = Freezing Aura | Ice Front | Shatter Base = Arctic | Attack: Frost | Kas Disciple | Nohkan Do 1 (Default upgrades = Frost Aura 2 + Ice Front) She went from Damage Shield: Frost 1 (2 DMG/hit) to rocking both Damage Shield: Frost 3 (6 DMG/hit) and Frost Aura 3 (6 DMG/turn). She's also cheaper than before which makes her an overly efficient source of damage. A better option is choosing between guaranteed (Aura), offensive (Chill) or defensive (Shield) frost damage. Freezing Aura or Ice Front are perfect options given her rune art (Freezing Strike and Trail: Ice being weaker versions if deemed too strong) with Shatter providing utility that matches the ice-centric setup (brittle equipment from the cold). Nohkan Grandmaster - [12 DMG | 6 SPD | 2-4 RNG | 1 DEF | 50 HP] Path 1 = Counterstrike 3 | Snow Blast | Telekinetic Thrust Path 2 = Crystallize | Freeze | Resolute Base = Arctic | Attack: Psychic | Kas Disciple | Nohkan Do 2 | Ripples (Default upgrades = Counterstrike 3 + Freeze) Counterstrike doesn't make sense without psychic damage and a ranged basic attack. Reverting to Attack: Psychic implies counterattacks are achieved through mental backlash. Snow Blast/Telekinetic Thrust (from old Slam) fit the Frost/Psychic theme while Crystallize/Freeze (icy version of Paralyze) supply utility options. Nohkan Guide - [9 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 1 DEF | 42 HP] Path 1 = Feint | Motivate | Train: Nokhan Do 1 Path 2 = Confuse Attacker | Mobility | Swap 2 Base = Arctic | Attack: Physical | Find Pupil | Kas Disciple | Nohkan Do 2 (Default upgrades = Train: Nohkan Do 1 + Confuse Attacker) Bring back some old options and add Kas Disciple to base. I've included Train: Nohkan Do 1. Changes to Disciplines REMOVED: Alluring Discpline Forbidden Discipline Solo: Forbidden Discipline REPLACED: Chilling Discipline -> Chill 2 Crippling Discipline -> Stun Freezing Discipline -> Freezing Strike Sundering Discipline -> Feint
Ferren Focus and the New Kas Discipline are weaker than the current discipline. The current disciplines give global +1 damage and put status effects on your opponent (that actually carry over to the next round). I'll respond to everything on the list individually when I get the time gotta head out soon.
Get rid of nohkando and discipline abillities on ferren. Give us back ferren focus, and spread swap around.
