I'll go ahead and throw these out for the time being: Gnarlwood Patriarch Lethargic and Vulnerability Fire removed from base. Resulting cost: 70 to 74 (from 56 – 60). Even his critics say that Lethargic and Vulnerability Fire do little to impair him. The additional 14 Nora added to his cost, on the other hand, does much more to reduce his efficiency. The chant from the mob is "Boost, Shroud, 60 Nora." Well, 70-74 seems much more reasonable and is easily attained by removing what causes him to be so undercosted. He can retain his current purpose and utility at that cost. Optional: Removing Take Root in addition to this would put him at 68 to 72. This is a noticeable offensive and defensive blow, since Patriarch is excellent for rooting. Note: Patriarch may also be subject to cost increase with regards to the 2x2 discount. Gnarlwood Grappler Health to 50 (from 65), Damage to 6 (from 8), Defense to 1 (from 2) Fire Vulnerability removed from base (Cost +6) Entangling Attack added to base (Cost +10) Path #1: Domain Vegetation (+4), Detection 2 (+4) Path #2: Plant Regen 1 (+2), Plant Regen 2 (+4), Plant Regen 3 (+6) New Cost = Current Cost + 16 – Stat Changes This my variation of Karmavore's build. If the value of the stats are 16 Nora or less (and using Xirone's post above as a guide, it may be pretty close), his cost will be the same or more, but he will have 15 less HP. Note that Entangling Attack does pretty much what Clamp does, but at twice the cost. His main upgrade choice will be between having his previous Damage and Defense only when occupying vegetation, or having his newly lowered stats and Detection, a welcome utility that doesn’t make him stronger in a combat sense. End Result: A Grappler at the same cost minus 15 HP that requires vegetation to have his previous Damage and Defense, or an even weaker one with a utility role. Gnarlwood Launcher Base Damage to 10 (from 12), Defense to 1 (From 0), Health to 50 (from 55) Remove Vulnerability Fire from base (Cost +6) New Cost = Current Cost +6 and the cost of 1 Defense – The cost of 2 Damage and 5 Health This is pretty simple and again uses Karmavore’s suggestion as the basis. Launcher just won’t do as much damage as easily as before. The Defense is just to mitigate some of the cost change from reducing his damage and health and hardly makes the difference that 2 Damage makes for a unit with Launcher’s range. I estimate he will cost the same as before or very close to it. Optional: As with Grappler, it may be possible to reduce it's Damage further to 8 and leave Defense at 0, but give it Domain Vegetation instead. This allows it the same performance as the 10 Damage, 1 Defense version above, but again has an additional dependancy. Of course, this hinges whether or not the price of 2 Damage and 1 Defense is roughly the same as Domain or not. I just think that lower base stats and Domain on non-Forestwalkers would add to the theme's intricacy while at the same time lowering the inherent effectiveness of individual units. It also makes Forest Walker more meaningful and opens up the door for an opponent to counter by altering the terrain on which the treefolk are standing. Note: Launcher may also be subject to cost increase with regards to the 2x2 and Lumbering discounts.
Just drop all the -cost abilities which are too efficient anyways. Vuln:Fire should be -4 nora tops, that's a global cost increase for trees. Take Lethargic off Patriarch, Lumbering off Launcher, Greenhouse now has Boost: 3 (so it doesn't stack with boost or give speed), and suddenly they look a lot more balanced. Trees are broken because they have a ton of neg. cost abilities for flavor reasons, and cheaper is always better.
I like this. Outcast could use the bump. He is inherently less attractive than Flamemage because of Dissipate which reduces his damage at maximum range to 5. He also requires several sacrifices to do the same damage at the same range as Flamemage. Plus he deserves to have guaranteed place in the theme he pioneered.
As mentioned, one of the reasons Treefolk are so cheap is that one of their "racials" is a negative ability. What about changing that negative costing ability into something more neutral? Barkskin- This champion has Vulnerability: Fire, Resistance: Frost 3, and Resistance: Electricity 3 (Nora: 0) This would effectively increase the cost of most treefolk. Even Treefolk without Vulnerability: Fire could be given it, since it doens't have a cost. In addition, it preserves the flavor of trees, instead of just getting rid of Vulnerability: Fire on most champs. @Karmavore @Gorebucket, thoughts?
Apart from +6 cost on the champs that currently have Vulnerability Fire, it kind makes them better against certain factions and worse against others. Also, I like that fewer treefolk have Vulnerability Fire nowadays so the many fire AoEs aren't totally ruinous if you can't get a Willowind out quick enough. The situational nature of Vulnerabilities, and to a lesser extent Resistances, is something I feel is best avoided altogether. Except on Saplings. Saplings should be ravaged when a fire breaks out. Some good things about removing it where cost reductions are not necessary are it drives up the cost, provides fewer prime targets for Flame Siphon, cleans up the ability list, and could allow Nature's Balance to be removed from Willowind, allowing her to be built more favorably and leaving the few trees that still have the Vulnerability to burn if fate is unkind.
Dragonbark is a cool idea, having some more common dmg types could be deemed problematic. I myself don't have an issue with it, maybe other dmg types could fit thematically? Not sure. Where to go with this one, but I see some pontential. Also when I get a chance on Sunday I'll think I'll be editing my initial post, gore buckets ideas are spot on. Moving away from treefolk there are three *** units that I feel are pretty crucial in a tree bg. Which is elven tree caller/flame Mage/wood marshal. Any spit ball suggestions for these guys? (Like I said Sunday is my free day I'll able to post more structured posts.
There is no reason Wood Marshal should have 4-7 range for far less cost than having that range would be. As for the racial change suggestion, giving trees resistances along with their vuln feels like a bad idea to me as it makes them hard counter some factions (ST hits with frost and physical for example, and trees would have counters for both). Just removing Vuln: Fire is the best option to flat out nerf them while avoiding unintended craziness.
Off the top of my head: Flamemage: I like Xirone's earlier suggestion to trade Flame Siphon over to the less desirable Outcast. Wood Marshal: I hate to dismiss the effort put into making Skitter form, but I liked him better as a person and even more as a nicely ranged magic damage champ. He was the good thematic magic damage for the tree theme I'd been hoping for. Just remove Skitter Form (saving it for later use on a new champion, of course) and give him a proper range. Or keep Skitter Form and give him the same range in each form. Range 3-5 or 4-6 is plenty. In either case his cost would increase from the base range adjustment. If the resulting cost is too high, maybe he can also have Dissipate like the Outcast. That would also help keep the damage bonuses in check. Also, one major issue is that Sacrifice isn't charging AP, isn't going on cooldown, and is randomly not refunding nora for real Saplings. Fixing all the bugs with the ability would benefit balance, since the AP and cooldown thing are noticeably empowering. P.S. Revert name to Wood Marshal. Druid after Marshal will always seem tacked on. If he must be labeled as a druid in his name, Woodland Druid sounds good too.
I, too, hate the name Wood Marshal Druid and I, too, don't like Flame Skitter Form. Take Flame Skitter Form off base and adjust his RNG to 4-6. If for some reason his cost is too low, Extinguish could be put on him somewhere.
Frost and Electricity seemed the most thematic but does counter certain factions pretty well (though Vuln: Fire is a boon for UD players). Perhaps Barkskin giving Res: Psychic and Res: Electricity would be a better, less powerful set of resistances? As Gorebucket said, simply getting rid of Vuln: Fire is another valid way to go.
I kind of like the idea of having a "good" version and an "evil" version of the Woodland Druid (note the name change ). Devotee of De'lim could be on one upgrade path while Sacrifice of De'lim could be on the other. Each upgrade path could then have a "good" upgrade choice like Extinguish and Boost: Treefolk. Though it is a big rework, he could look something like... Woodland Druid DMG: 10, SPD: 6, RNG: 4-6, DEF: 1, HP: 44 Base Abilities: Attack: Magical (0 nora), Flame Armor 2 (8 nora), Summon Treespirit (12 nora) Upgrade Path 1: Devotee of De'lim (6 nora), Extinguish (6 nora) Upgrade Path 2: Sacrifice of De'lim (4 nora), Boost: Treefolk 2 (8 nora)
Ooo. That's awesome! Tree support path and tree destroying path with the neutral abilities base. Let me explore that...
Feel free to come up with your own set of good and evil upgrades, it is fun! We agree that Flame Skitter Form artificially keeps his cost low while giving him an inferior in-game sprite!
I was thinking psychic as well for dragonbark. I really enjoy the thought of Woodmarshal having two different abilities sets increasing his diversity. Usefulness in a wide arrange kf decks while also cutting the issue of being "one stop multiple purpose" users make the choice of how he is used which exactly how all upgrade sets should be, but that's another thread altogether.
I'll be editing my PCR with some of these ideas in mind, but Bane Shift. Keep it going this is a good discussion! =] Glad to have such a friendly faction to help out!
My version. A bit costlier in tree support mode. I'd probably run Boost 3 and Flame Nova 3 in a pure tree deck. Woodland Druid Damage 10, Speed 6, Range 3-5 (or 4-6), Defense 1, Health 44 Attack Magical Flame Armor 3 (10) Summon Treespirit (12) Upgrade Paths: Malevolent / Neutral / Benevolent Path #1: Devotee of Delim (6), Flamestrike 2 (8), Boost Treefolk 3 (10) Path #2: Sacrifice of Delim (4), Flame Nova 3 (6), Extinguish (6) He would presumably remain an 80+ champion.
Rite of Creation/Rite of Power could be the "neutral" upgrades? The flavor text does mention his love of fire so, I suppose, the choices you have are perfectly acceptable as well! I wonder how willing Gedden would be in doing a rather large revamp of this champ?
