Underpriced/overpriced abilities

I'm not sure if anyone has made a thread about this already, but I decided to take a shot at it.

Trying to build out a preliminary set of outliers that are either inconsistent with the cost of similar abilities, or are inconsistent with the standard of value in the game as a whole. Please reply with other examples.

7/21 Update

• Updated the Titan entry to reflect the recent price change
• Added various abilities brought up in the thread: Boost: X, Magnetic Pulse, Prestige, Reckless Flight, Revere: X, Sonic Aura, Static Aura, Torch, Weapon Forger
• Added Bind to the overpriced list, because why does that ability even exist?

OVERPRICED

Acid Breath - 9/11/13 Nora

I'm only including this because Acid Bomb is 8/10/12 and I think it's pretty silly, considering they are exactly the same.



Artillery Strike - 25 Nora

I kind of can't believe this ability costs this much, especially when you consider Artillery costs only 10, and Strike deals similar damage in the same AoE except it's delayed by a round.

Some might say it's different because Strike hits at 7-9 range, but come on. Artillery is on Moga Cannon and Tortun Mortar, who have 4-6 and 7-8 range respectively. I don't see a reason for this to be 25. Could stand a fairly big cost decrease. Gunbattery and DMC will need further adjustments, of course.



Bind - 10 Nora

Assault is only 8 Nora and generally does more than the 10 damage that Bind does. In the interest of ability consolidation, I don't think Bind should exist. Every champion with Bind should just get Assault instead. But if we really really want Bind to still exist for some reason, it needs to cost 7 in my opinion.



Block - 8/10 Nora

Block 1 isn't a great ability for 8 Nora when you consider what other defensive abilities cost that much.

Nohkan Do is the same price (8). Abash is 10. Vaporize is 9. Considering all this, I think Block could stand to move down to 5/8, especially considering it prevents one melee attack. In this respect, I believe Dodge could probably move to 7/9, but that's about as far as I would go.



Cast: Dark Pact - 20 Nora

In comparison, Cast: Alacrity is only 10 Nora, and Cast: Cauterize is only 6. Dark Pact is so situational, especially compared with Alacrity, that I can't see the justification for the cost. I really really don't think this should cost more than 12 Nora.



Hydrate - 12 Nora

Poor Quagmirrian. Looks like we found the culprit.

So considering that Momentum 2 is only 4 Nora for the exact same AP gain effect (AoE2, 2 AP) for a similar CD (5 instead of 4), does the water make up for the +8 Nora? That's dumb. Make Hydrate 5 Nora at the very most.

Quagmirrian's still 91, but we can sort the rest out later.



Liability - (-4) Nora

Yeah, I said overpriced. Needs to go down.

Pariah is -5 Nora. Vulns range from -3 to -10. Those are debuffs to one champ only, and yet an AoE debuff is only -4? Consider that Soften is worth 10 Nora, and this is the inverse, passive version of that ability.

It's a horrible, awful ability and I think it should really be -8 considering its effect on other friendly champs.



Deathstrike - 17 Nora

Seems to be the main reason Greater Pitspawn is hovering at 100 while the rest of the Titans are so far below. Could stand to be at least 5 Nora less expensive, especially considering it's only on two expensive champions - one of which does 22 DMG on base attacks.



Improve: X - 7-10 Nora

Improve abilities are 7 for DMG, 10 for RNG, and 10 for SPD.

Battlemaster 3 is only 4 Nora, gives +2 DMG and +1 DEF, is not race-restricted, and only has 1 fewer range to it than Improve: DMG. Seems to me that either Battlemaster needs to be bumped up, or Improve needs to be bumped down.

I'm inclined to say Battlemaster needs a bump up, considering champs like the new Dirge, Euan and Elven Strategist. However, I think those underpriced champs are due to other abilities, so I'd say Improve could use some love instead.

Improve: DMG should be 3 or even 4 Nora. Improve: RNG and SPD could be 6 or 7. Seems fair to me.



Magnetic Pulse - 50 Nora

Yes, I know, we all hate this ability. But it's not worth 50 Nora, particularly since its AP lock accomplice is no longer around. Personally, I think this ability should be revamped altogether to something other than an AP drain. This could be another case of ability consolidation, where we simply replace Magnetic Pulse with Psychic Magnetism, to preserve the flavor of the "magnetic" champions, but they're no longer sandbagged with a 50 Nora ability that no one likes.



Oblivion Shield - 15 Nora

15, really? Consider other, much better defensive abilities: One With Nora is 12. Pawn is 6. Hell, Arrow Eater is 14.

This needs to go to 10 or 12, easy.



Reckless Flight - (-20) Nora

"This unit has mobility", lolz.

Anyway, Wandering is -30 Nora. Flight is 6 Nora. Reckless Flight should be... -24 Nora? Maybe? C'mon, you know you want to run Skeezick Sniper at 29...!

Personally, I kind of hate this ability and think it should be done away with in favor of something more interesting. That goes for Wandering, too. But I realize this isn't the thread for that discussion.



Revere: X - 10 Nora

I think we can agree most of the Heralds right now are crap. Reducing Revere's price would help in boosting them back to playability. (Obviously some other changes may be required, yadda yadda yadda)

Revere costs 10, and most of the time saves you less than 10 and gives you an ability worth less than 10. It's tough to objectively price this because it has such an expensive prerequisite (150-180 Nora worth of champions) but I think it could stand to get knocked down to something like 6.



Sonic Aura - 4/6/9 Nora

All other damaging Auras are 2/4/8 except this one. While the different Immunities, Eaters, Amplifies, Vulnerabilities, etc. are priced differently for every type, when it comes to Auras I think they should be priced the same across the board like their Attack and Bomb counterparts.



Static Aura - 8 Nora

Compare to Deafening Aura, also for 8. Deafening gives a status effect (Distract) and 3 damage per space within 3 spaces. Static Aura has no status effect, and does 2 damage per space within 2 spaces.

Alternatively, Deafening Aura deserves a cost hike - but Static Aura is on fewer champions, all of which are a little on the expensive side, so I would advocate a change to Static instead.



Stationary - (-5) Nora

Like I said earlier with Liability - Pariah is -4, but not being able to move your champ or do anything with it except sit and take up space, is worth -5...?

Honestly, we're looking at -10 here at least. For comparison, Immobile (Found on Sentinel of Ailur and Crystalis) is -30. Is relocation potential really worth 25 Nora? Then again, Immobile is likely very underpriced.



Surge: Arthropod 1 - 10 Nora

Only calling out rank 1 because there's such a huge discrepancy with the other Surges. Other than Surge: Skeleton (8) and Surge: Moga (6), every Surge ability with a rank 2 is 5 Nora for rank 1. So why is Arthropod 10...?

Some Surges are just rank 1 and they're 7 Nora (G'hern, Mutant, Spirit, and Hyaenid) but none of them ever get close to 10. Interesting. Why not tap all Surge rank 1s to 5? Or even 7? Just make it consistent.



Torch - 8/16 Nora

I never understood why Torch had such a high price. Compare to Dark Healing, which is only 4 Nora and has a much more desirable effect.

Another instance where I would suggest merging the two abilities in the interest of ability consolidation. Torch is only on two champions (Nefari Soul Torch and Outcast of the Flame), and I don't think Dark Healing would be out of flavor for them. Soul Torch would get a 12 Nora cost decrease though, and may require some adjustments.



Weapon Forger - 35 Nora

The only champ in the game with this ability, Lodestone Armory, weeps at his 5 SPD, 70+ Nora self because of this price.

I get it, Heavy Crossbow is worth 35, so the ability is 35. Except Axeman's Fate and Sunder Axe are worth 20 and 25. Since it's random, shouldn't it be the average cost of all 3 equips? That would make it worth 26 Nora, which is still a little on the high side considering how much the equips suck.

I propose revamping this ability entirely, to give different equips. On that note, Mystic Forge would like to be given the same treatment.



UNDERPRICED

Ally: X - 2 Nora

See comments under Loyalty. +9 stats for 2 Nora, plus it has the global 1 AP gain. Deserves a cost hike along the same lines as Loyalty.



Boost: X - 6/8/10 Nora

It doesn't give +1 SPD anymore, but Boost 3 for 10 is still on the low side.

While I think Improve should get a decrease, Boosts need an increase. It's race-restricted, but giving +10 stats at range 6 is a hefty bonus. Battlemaster 3, which I think is a little underpriced at 4, gives +3 stats at range 5 with no race restriction. Scaling this up, you could price Boost 3 at 13 Nora and still be on the low side considering the extra space of range.

+7, +8 and +10 stats should probably be priced something like 9/11/14 at the minimum. And if Battlemaster gets a cost increase, that goes up even more.



Domain: X - 4 Nora

Vegetation and Rock are a lot more common than Sand, Snow and Lava, but all Domains are equally priced at 4. I think we could bump down the uncommon terrain types to 2 Nora. In the same vein, Hidden abilities are 2 across the board.

Just to clarify, there is a precedent for varying costs based on terrain. Please see the Tunnel abilities - the less common ones have a 2/4/7 ladder, while Vegetation and Earth have 2/6/10.



Evasive - 3/5/7 Nora

I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that Reflexes is 3/6/9 and Evasive is 3/5/7. It makes very little sense, considering the overall power of ranged attacks - shouldn't protection from ranged attacks be worth more than protection from melee attacks? I would propose something like 4/8/12 for Evasive if Reflexes stays where it is.

Otherwise, I think 3/5/8 for Reflexes and 4/7/10 for Evasive is more fair, considering Arrow Eater is 14 and Intimidating is 12. Also consider changes to Scythe Whirl (12) and Scrapper (15) based on this.



Ghost - 10 Nora

Ah yes, permanent Immunity- All except Magical. Let's review what all that entails, eh?

Immunity- Physical, by itself, is 15 Nora. Immunity Acid/Fire/Frost/Psychic/Electricity are all 6. Immunity Disease/Poison/Sonic are 4.

So considering all that, Ghost should cost 57 Nora. So let's give Ancestral Avenger a 47 Nora cost hike, plus the additional Nora from Titan. Or we could just change Incorporeal to not be so blatantly overpowered, either one.



Hero / Split Hero - (-15/-10) Nora

Not sure why Hero is -15, but I guess it explains why all the Heroes are all of a sudden way cheaper, and why we have 86 Nora Juya. Same situation as Titan really - Iron Will's worth 2, but somehow the "Unique" aspect of this ability adds -17?

Split Hero is also at fault here, and explains why Mosharn is priced in the mid-70's for some ungodly reason. Really I think they should both be set to 0 Nora. Iron Will is worth 2, and let the "Unique" thing make it even.


Loyalty - 2 Nora

Obviously needs an increase based on the stats it gives. It gives +9 stats for 2 Nora. Meanwhile, Aerial Supremacy costs 7 Nora and only gives +4, situationally. Domain even costs 4, and it only gives +3 stats.

Loyalty cost stand to receive a 5-7 Nora increase (That would make it 7-9) for the value it provides.



Nohkan Do - 8 Nora

I guess the most comparable ability we have to this is Zephyr Shield, which is 18 Nora and provides a missed attack every 4 AP. I think this is enough evidence to suggest Nohkan Do is grossly underpriced.



Prestige - 6 Nora

Bastion of Will is 8 Nora, and Bastion of Courage is 6. Combined, they are... 6?

Suggest raising price to 12, considering the bundled costs.



Rock Eater - 10 Nora

Considering Immunity: Physical is 15, I'm not sure why Rock Eater is a whole 5 Nora less - particularly since every other Eater ability either has the same cost or is more expensive than its Immunity counterpart. (I: Magical and Magic Eater are both 8, I: Fire is 6 while Fire Eater is 8, etc.)

Seems this should be at least 15.



Summon: Imp - 5/10 Nora

Not sure why these are so cheap, considering the costs of other summon abilities. Summon: Moga summons a Moga Pup into play, and it costs 8. The Imp is Shadowspawned now too, and comes with Dodge. I think it could go to 8/13 or even 10/15 for the value it brings.

Also, fun fact... Summon Furbull Litter is 70 Nora. 70! Kinda blew my mind when I saw it. I think it might be the most expensive ability in the game.



Take Root - 1 Nora

I suspect this is largely in part to the fact that Immobile is -30 Nora and Skirmisher is -5, but this being 1 Nora is simply absurd considering the +16 stats/+1 RNG buff it gives. A closer look is needed.



Titan - (-8) Nora

Considering "Titan" is just a bundled ability set, the -8 Nora pricetag is a bit baffling, especially considering the only negative ability in the set is Unequippable, which is only -5 Nora.

If you add up the included abilities (worth 2, 3, 2, 3 and 0 respectively) together, Titan should cost +5 Nora, unless adjustments are made to the bundled abilities.

This ability was recently changed from -15 to -8, but it inevitably needs a positive Nora price.

 

Desert Walker (12 nora) is rather out of whack when compared to High Tide (8 nora), Rock Front (2 nora), Forest Walker (4 nora), and Ice Front (8 nora).

Also Sand-Fall (Rank 1) is 5 nora, while Lava-Fall (Rank 1) is 4 nora and Snow-Fall (Rank 1) is 4 nora. If anything Sand-Fall should be cheaper as it is neither impeding nor damaging. At Rank 2 they all cost 8 nora, but I still feel that Sand-Fall is over costed by comparison to the other two at that point.


Edit:
Stat Bonus: Damage (Rank 2) - 4 nora
Skeezick Alliance - 4 nora

 

GabrielQ already had a thread like this, but certainly it wasn't as complete as this one.

As I posted on another thread, and putting diplomacy aside, the ability pricing so far is a complete mess and needs a massive review to adjust all these mistakes.

 

I'm Commander Tang and this is my favorite thread in the forum.

 

Loved the comparisons made between block and no kan do. Makes sense to me. Bump this thread to the top. Now I am wondering why Quagmirrian so expensive when Hydrate is just like Momentum?

 

The Councils reviewed all this, WTF did they do?

 

Deep Wounds at 8 nora seems a little low to me.
Colossal at 12 seems a bit low, too.
I know this will probably earn me some enmity, but i don't think Soulstrike is worth 22 nora.
There's no way Magnetic Pulse is worth 50 nora, especially now that you can't AP lock.
Soul Siphon at 25 seems too expensive for how much you're going to realistically get from it.
Carouse at 10 nora is a bit much.
Battlemaster at 2/3/4 is a little low.
Battle Harden at 3/7/12 is off for how little extra benefit the higher ranks offer.
I'm not sure that I agree with every attack type being 0 nora. Physical should be zero, anything ampable should cost a few nora and anything with prolific resistances and immunities should give a small discount.

 

Sonic aura compared to all other damaging auras. 4/6/9 when all other auras are 2/4/8
Static aura is 8 nora and does 2 damage and no debuff in aoe 2, Deafening aura is 8 as well but does 3 and distracts as well as having aoe3.

Idk about this one but Slam VS Explosive attack; Slam costs 0 ap and has the potential to do 10 damage extra, explosive attack has +1 ap and a cooldown and rank one only has a extra damage potential of 6. Slam costs 4, explosive attack costs 4/7/10. Rank 2 of explosive has a damage potential added of 9, and 3 has 11 extra damage.
Slam seems better in all cases, due to no cooldown, usable while distracted, higher damage potential/movement disadvantage to enemy, no extra AP cost...

Bestial presence costs 4/6/7/6 ?

Dark healing VS torch; Dark healing costs 4 nora and reduces all enemy healing 50% AND heals your units for that much. Torch costs 8/16 has "friendly fire" and essentially reduces all healing on both sides 50% with rank 2.

All "elemental" deflects cost the same, where deflect poison is at a clear disadvantage of not damaging relics which is the most common counterplay to deflect.

Almost all immunity/eaters cost the same for both, in some cases eater costs less.

 

Great thread sep. Really well done señor

 

Not sure I agree on Liability being overcosted, since unlike Vulns and such the player is in control of the drawback. I'd take it on some champs, anyway.

 

Yeah, I've mentioned a number of these abilites to Gedden already. Having Sep mention them independently is great! Overall, a very useful thread!

 

Another one is Cast: Fairy Dust (not just called Fairy Dust). The ability was changed in the revamp to grant Wandering for 2 turns (instead of 4) and the ability costs 12 Nora. By comparison, Pin Down, which has a lower AP cost, lower CD, and grants Immobile for 2 turns, only costs 8 Nora.

 

Why does ghost not just cause the unit to take full (or a small bonus) amount of damage from magical, and heavily reduced from everything else.

Keeps it's flavour, causes less headaches.

 

Akakios gets -14 if you take roar of the fallen over annihilate.

I'd say roar is amazing to begin with, but annihilate being +14 more nora is pretty jokes

 

i know this will be a hot button topic but Arctic is 2 nora. Ready is 6 nora. I know Arctic champions don't permanently have Ready but 2 nora seems a little light. It is not the most pressing issue right now, of course.

 

Both spell counters, Spell Blockade (50 nora) and Counterspell Mastery (15 nora plus 2 nora for Supercharged 1) seem a little high. Paying upfront for a spell to fizzle (and almost kill a champ) is a bit pricey when the cost of the ability is most likely going to be higher than the cost of the spell that was countered. For Counterspell Mastery, Fairy Trickster is the only champion in the game with it and it takes 6 rounds before it is active. Counterspell Mastery's cost is close to being correct where as Spell Blockade is at least 10 nora over priced.

 

I guess Deathstrike might be a little too much but I don't think it is the reason Pitspawn is crappy, I think it's more that it doesn't work well on him since he is hitting for 23, which is nearly half of most champs hitpoints anyway. Curse is also a questionable ability on him -- do you really want to use him as a debuffer? Add to that planer bound which means he can't be beckoned, and you have all the ingrediants of a shoebox champ without anything needing to be miscosted.

By way of comparison, if you could take deathstrike on the deep elf scout or imp strangler, that might be a pretty good deal for 17 nora.

 

I agree on most of the thread, but I'm still of the idea that abilities that are in someway related to the stats of the owner can't have a fixed price (i.e. bombs/cone or evasive/reflexes/tough for the DEF influence). But, probably, having them to cost different on each champ will be too much work...

 

Nice.

As a note though. I think Reflexes costs more than Evasive because they are wanting melee to be a bit more powerful and ranged a bit less powerful than they were.