Discussion: Patch Notes: May 21st, 2015

mortal ix · May 22, 2015

Mausini said: ↑

I try to write down some things going around in my mind about the changes, especially ST because that is the faction I know the best. WAll of text inc, sorry for that. I hope this can be the beginning for a more constructive debate about balancing changes and themes.

While I think that pede is overreacting a little bit (he seems to be depressed about the direction of ST in general and the effort he spend for making thing better from his point of view) I do need to agree with some point he has.

1. Buff to ranged champs:
I like both changes. Both champs are very runnable now but I dislike the reason why you did that changes. I exclude the Shaman from my like list because do really wonder what happened with here. More about the shaman at point 2.

Moles said he felt that ST needs some meta worthy ranged options and I do agree with that. ST always had the most potent ranged stuff after KF, that was one of the reason why I started playing that faction in the beginning.

But, why didn't you buff the new Frostseer? He is subpair and people where not satisfied with him after they spend MONEY for buying your product.

Why didn't you try to bring back the Lonx Marauder as meta option? She and her core ability was hit hard with the Sunder nerf without any compensation. That champ is in a semi playable state right now. I really tried to include her in my decks but most of the time when it comes to deploying a ranged option I just think: "Na, I don't deploy her, hunter wont kick in anyway". Let her hunter ability kick in with 0 def on the enemy champ, reduce the extra damage to 30/40 %. Bum she is meta gain.

Why a exotic and a leg and the leg even has a deck limit of 1. This is not newbie friendly and won't help attracting new players. There are so much common and uncommon ranged options that are in need of a buff.

2. Buff to a Jakei "theme"
Molest said he wanted to buff the Jakei as a theme a litte. Nice! The problem is, there is no Jakei theme and changing 2 champs towards that direction don't help a bit.
Even more problematic: There have been made major changes to champs for strengthening the crystal/jakei theme in the near past and now something is introduced that goes into a other direction? What is going to happen with the crystal theme? Everybody in the ST community was hoping for further buffs of that still underdeveloped theme.
And now the shaman. The only existing real crystal support champ, buffed just 2? patches ago is changed again and on top of that with the idea to push her into into a other direction?

Where is the masterplan? Where is the roadmap that leads to healthy themes? If there is something like a roadmap how could you deliver such a botched shippable product (in a lean sense)?

3. What could have been done from my point of view

Lacking meta ranged options: Fix the Marauder. This would also help Lonx as a theme that got nerfed in several ways.

Buff the Jakei Heretic in a way that she benefits the crystal/jakei theme. (But hey you just created the third 7 ranged champ in ST. Heretic is double dead now)

If you really want to buff the jakei as a single theme "Commander: Jakei" on the Frostseer instead of Veil would have been a good idea. At least this would give her a unique role. In combination with the Queen this would have been a solid first step to develop that theme.

Fixing Swap and Trail Crystal on the Crystal Crawler would have been a good idea.

Looking for a good support champ for ST? Cool, changing AoI was a good idea but why 7 speed on a support champ? And the main problem with AoI was and will be duplicity. 8 rounds before it kicks in in FF ST? With the old charge mechanic that is abusable like hell? (Mail of Barbs, Processing collar? Hello?) That mechanic will under or overperform if used in splits. Just wait for the complaints.

Please decide if you want do develop the crystal theme or not. The Elemental Core without nora gem, this particular patch and Molest let me suggest that crystal is not on a good way. If not please hurry up and develop Jakei as a theme and put off all the nora gem stuff from crystal champs to make them cheaper norawise.

If you still want to develop crystal: Act like it and don't try to push non existing themes that no one was asking for.
Click to expand...

I tried to address this in a previous thread and alot of people seem to agree. ST is being drawn in so many directions and the result is a bunch of half finished themes that function subpar to its necessary level.

Mausini · May 22, 2015

Rokkushun said: ↑
ST hasn't got many changes since nobody has been constructivly advocating for them.
Be the change you wish to see, suggest reasonable changes to reasonable runes and back them up with logic.
If you aren't great with ideas I volunteer to help via PM but you've just gotta stop whining and doing nothing about it.

drathys said: ↑

Amen
Click to expand...

This is not Correct:
http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php?threads/crystal-discussion.12151/ 2 pages discussion about how to improve crystal

http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php?threads/frostfall-snowstorm-terrain-theme-ideas.14967/

http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php?threads/spitballing-with-nkd.12277/ How can NKD be changed

http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php?threads/monks-ferren-discussion.12153/ Ferren and NKD discussion

http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php?threads/amp-discussion.12152/ Amp discussion

http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php?threads/runes-to-buff-change-overhaul-in-st.10785/ Lists of suppair champs in ST with suggestions

What exactly do you think constructive feedback is?
As a sidenote: Almost none of the topics discussed in the ST board where adressed in the last patches.

drathys · May 22, 2015

Pedeguerra said: ↑

Oh, good, because Wraith has 55 ranked wins and 33 losses, which makes for a total of 88 games played on ranked.
On wraithxxV: 758w and 604losses, which makes for total of 1372 matches on ranked.
Yeah, I dont think you qualify for making balance calls. Sorry, but this is my opinion. Bash away if you will, I have nothing against you, but these type of things blow my mind.
@BurnPyro : wtf man, how is this being "low"? Stop being such a ****** yourself, I have done nothing against you. Are you sucking up to Moles again to be his buddy, and now you are defending him? Grow up, leave me be. If you dont like my posts ignore me.
Click to expand...

aaannnddd ignore...

Moles · May 22, 2015

Kampel said: ↑

Could you please explain me your reasoning behind Thunder's change? why keep the explosive attack for everyone but keep the other ability for attack: pistol champs, why change the nora drain nature when it would work better to the onhit tortun flavour which at the same time was maintaining versatility for splits
In my eyes SL got greatly disfavored by this change, i do understand that hero equips needed to be reworked and i do understand the split themes needed to get the most of this changes but please explain to me your thinking.
Click to expand...

So me and @Wraith split the remaining hero equips in half and Thunder was one of his changes, i'm sure he can explain his thinking.

Goyo said: ↑

In the past, I did some researches and resumes of what people wanted in the ST forums. It was well received by the frosty community, but greens literally ignored all these suggestions, and we depended on our council member, and even so, greens took only what he wanted from his calls.

I will take your words and roll another thread full of suggestions. But please, don't ignore it this time.

This doesn't means I want the changes to literally be what we write in there. Just take what we LIKE and seek for themes from there, rather than on viability on some premade decks you might have in mind.
Click to expand...

Ya, thats very helpful - and posts like that are not ignored, bear in mind at the very first hurdle I wanted to show some of my line of thinking and that does not mean we don't plan to boost OTHER themes and factions in the near future, we just didn't want to do too much in one go - as you can see the patch notes were very large to begin with.

KingJad · May 22, 2015

Moles said: ↑

So me and @Wraith split the remaining hero equips in half and Thunder was one of his changes, i'm sure he can explain his thinking.

Ya, thats very helpful - and posts like that are not ignored, bear in mind at the very first hurdle I wanted to show some of my line of thinking and that does not mean we don't plan to boost OTHER themes and factions in the near future, we just didn't want to do too much in one go - as you can see the patch notes were very large to begin with.
Click to expand...

ST had like 5 real changes just saying...

KingJad · May 22, 2015

Mausini said: ↑

I try to write down some things going around in my mind about the changes, especially ST because that is the faction I know the best. WAll of text inc, sorry for that. I hope this can be the beginning for a more constructive debate about balancing changes and themes.

While I think that pede is overreacting a little bit (he seems to be depressed about the direction of ST in general and the effort he spend for making thing better from his point of view) I do need to agree with some point he has.

1. Buff to ranged champs:
I like both changes. Both champs are very runnable now but I dislike the reason why you did that changes. I exclude the Shaman from my like list because do really wonder what happened with here. More about the shaman at point 2.

Moles said he felt that ST needs some meta worthy ranged options and I do agree with that. ST always had the most potent ranged stuff after KF, that was one of the reason why I started playing that faction in the beginning.

But, why didn't you buff the new Frostseer? He is subpair and people where not satisfied with him after they spend MONEY for buying your product.

Why didn't you try to bring back the Lonx Marauder as meta option? She and her core ability was hit hard with the Sunder nerf without any compensation. That champ is in a semi playable state right now. I really tried to include her in my decks but most of the time when it comes to deploying a ranged option I just think: "Na, I don't deploy her, hunter wont kick in anyway". Let her hunter ability kick in with 0 def on the enemy champ, reduce the extra damage to 30/40 %. Bum she is meta gain.

Why a exotic and a leg and the leg even has a deck limit of 1. This is not newbie friendly and won't help attracting new players. There are so much common and uncommon ranged options that are in need of a buff.

No more meta champs
2. Buff to a Jakei "theme"
Molest said he wanted to buff the Jakei as a theme a litte. Nice! The problem is, there is no Jakei theme and changing 2 champs towards that direction don't help a bit.
Even more problematic: There have been made major changes to champs for strengthening the crystal/jakei theme in the near past and now something is introduced that goes into a other direction? What is going to happen with the crystal theme? Everybody in the ST community was hoping for further buffs of that still underdeveloped theme.
And now the shaman. The only existing real crystal support champ, buffed just 2? patches ago is changed again and on top of that with the idea to push her into into a other direction?
Where is the masterplan? Where is the roadmap that leads to healthy themes? If there is something like a roadmap how could you deliver such a botched shippable product (in a lean sense)?
Jakei aren't a theme and this patch had absolutely no direction and if it did it was the wrong direction because the only thing that happened was an attempt at making meta champs.

3. What could have been done from my point of view

Lacking meta ranged options: Fix the Marauder. This would also help Lonx as a theme that got nerfed in several ways.

Buff the Jakei Heretic in a way that she benefits the crystal/jakei theme. (But hey you just created the third 7 ranged champ in ST. Heretic is double dead now)

If you really want to buff the jakei as a single theme "Commander: Jakei" on the Frostseer instead of Veil would have been a good idea. At least this would give her a unique role. In combination with the Queen this would have been a solid first step to develop that theme.

Fixing Swap and Trail Crystal on the Crystal Crawler would have been a good idea.

Looking for a good support champ for ST? Cool, changing AoI was a good idea but why 7 speed on a support champ? And the main problem with AoI was and will be duplicity. 8 rounds before it kicks in in FF ST? With the old charge mechanic that is abusable like hell? (Mail of Barbs, Processing collar? Hello?) That mechanic will under or overperform if used in splits. Just wait for the complaints.

No more meta champs

Agreed

Jakei aren't suppose to be a theme (words of sok)

I think bugs just aren't going to be fixed. Is alluring discipline still bugged didn't see anything in the notes even though I was personally told it would be fixed

AoI still is bad

Please decide if you want do develop the crystal theme or not. The Elemental Core without nora gem, this particular patch and Molest let me suggest that crystal is not on a good way. If not please hurry up and develop Jakei as a theme and put off all the nora gem stuff from crystal champs to make them cheaper norawise.

If you still want to develop crystal: Act like it and don't try to push non existing themes that no one was asking for.
Click to expand...

Netherzen · May 22, 2015

Mausini said: ↑

If you really want to buff the jakei as a single theme "Commander: Jakei" on the Frostseer instead of Veil would have been a good idea. At least this would give her a unique role. In combination with the Queen this would have been a solid first step to develop that theme.
Click to expand...

Please god no.I dont want to face a theme where everything has around 70 HP.Hp stacking needs to go and stay go.
The only themes which should have commander: something is the ones with low hp champs.

yobanchi · May 22, 2015

BurnPyro said: ↑

@Moles

The akakios changes were pretty poor, nobody's going to run a melee beater with 10 damage for 80+ nora. Especially since he's not a supertank. Can we get rid of the on death stuff? Roar of the fallen is just an enormous sandbag. Give him like 13-14 damage instead, maybe even 1-2 range.
Click to expand...

Roar of the fallen is like a 1 Nora ability isn't it?

Strings · May 22, 2015

yobanchi said: ↑

Roar of the fallen is like a 1 Nora ability isn't it?
Click to expand...

Petition: 2016 Roar of the Fallen for Broken Bones.

Netherzen · May 22, 2015

yobanchi said: ↑

Roar of the fallen is like a 1 Nora ability isn't it?
Click to expand...

It is.But apparently its an enormous sandbag.

BurnPyro · May 22, 2015

yobanchi said: ↑

Roar of the fallen is like a 1 Nora ability isn't it?
Click to expand...

oh whoops, i mistook it for the blessing of the fallen which is like 10

I have no idea why he's so ridiculously costy for those stats then. Flamethrower? 10 dmg tho

Netherzen said: ↑

It is.But apparently its an enormous sandbag.
Click to expand...

mercy

Strings said: ↑

Petition: 2016 Roar of the Fallen for Broken Bones.
Click to expand...

TT

themacca · May 22, 2015

Pedeguerra said: ↑

It's ok bud, I appreciate your effort, but changing a handful of runes isnt going to solve it for me.
I think we have a fundamental flaw on champs designs (their cost is too low), and this choice of letting Moles and Wraith make the patch is batshit insane to my eyes. I mean, I dont have anything against Wraith, but how much knowledge he has of high ranked play to be making balance calls?
You have to realise, though, is that Im not doing this against Pox, Im doing it to improve it. Some people hide what they are feeling, kiss some @ss here and there, but this is not my way.
Click to expand...

i feel like you could drastically improve the forums by leaving it, JS

Kampel · May 22, 2015

Moles said: ↑

So me and @Wraith split the remaining hero equips in half and Thunder was one of his changes, i'm sure he can explain his thinking.

Ya, thats very helpful - and posts like that are not ignored, bear in mind at the very first hurdle I wanted to show some of my line of thinking and that does not mean we don't plan to boost OTHER themes and factions in the near future, we just didn't want to do too much in one go - as you can see the patch notes were very large to begin with.
Click to expand...

........
@Wraith could you answer my question please:

Could you please explain me your reasoning behind Thunder's change? why keep the explosive attack for everyone but keep the other ability for attack: pistol champs, why change the nora drain nature when it would work better to the onhit tortun flavour which at the same time was maintaining versatility for splits
In my eyes SL got greatly disfavored by this change, i do understand that hero equips needed to be reworked and i do understand the split themes needed to get the most of this changes but please explain to me your thinking.
Click to expand...

Pedeguerra · May 22, 2015

badgerale said: ↑

Youre right that unstoppable was a bad thing to give him as it prevents a lot of the usual counters - knockback out of range, stun, paralyse.

Not sure if this was an oversight or if it was supposed to compensate against a perceived overnerf --- but yeah, it probably is about the worst ability he could of got lol.
Click to expand...

So, I was pessimist when I read ST changes, and thats all I did yesterday.
Then I log in today, and see the above - you guys "nerfed" Nefarian Guardian and gave him Unstopabble? LOL. Im just thankful at this point that I didnt go though the whole thing.
Yeah, I dont think Moles and Wraith are ready to make balance calls yet, and worst, apparently Sok doesnt know whats going on either.
I was in a better mood later in the night, but as I read this bullcrap today I gotta wonder if you guys know WTF you are doing to this game.

Osidan · May 22, 2015

I'm just here to say: thank God they nerfed Nokando.

Moles · May 22, 2015

Pedeguerra said: ↑

So, I was pessimist when I read ST changes, and thats all I did yesterday.
Then I log in today, and see the above - you guys "nerfed" Nefarian Guardian and gave him Unstopabble? LOL. Im just thankful at this point that I didnt go though the whole thing.
Yeah, I dont think Moles and Wraith are ready to make balance calls yet, and worst, apparently Sok doesnt know whats going on either.
I was in a better mood later in the night, but as I read this bullcrap today I gotta wonder if you guys know WTF you are doing to this game.
Click to expand...

I had initially put in a slightly stronger nerf on the Guardian without unstoppable, which was edited slightly by sok to make him less tanky with losing access to resist 3.

Pedeguerra · May 22, 2015

Unstoppable needs to go, man.

nakaruru · May 22, 2015

Osidan said: ↑

I'm just here to say: thank God they nerfed Nokando.
Click to expand...

With all the hate it gets I say just get rid of it. Give ferren back ferren focus and find something fun for the other monks.

JaceDragon · May 22, 2015

And it's not the only thing which should go.

polltroy · May 22, 2015

Lol. Just lol. I tried to get bqck in game for a week after the expansion. I was happy about cha ges after expansion, all seemed ok or even good, no crap like always. But then comes the patch... and im chased away again. Tribal war change into unrunnable. It was ok for a year at least, bu when j beat ti ydragkn a time kr twk with it, kt was nerfed to kblivion straught away. And its not even like it gave me some high ranks. Just devs decided (again) thats its not ok if someone finds some way tk play the game that is not all about waiting and waiting and waiting for the opponent misstakes.

FOX.

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Discussion: Patch Notes: May 21st, 2015

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Discussion: Patch Notes: May 21st, 2015

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