What is the point of giving the Damage Shields to those ranged champions?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ghklf, May 21, 2015.

  1. Lushiris

    Lushiris I need me some PIE!

    I did try reading everything, but it was a very fast reading so I'll give my 2 cents:

    The problem with sandbags is that not all champions have them. I wouldn't mind magearm with aura and damage shield if all other champions also had sandbags.

    Sok told me a couple times that attempting to make everything competitive will most likely result in a failure, as many other similar games prove. I don't like it, but he certainly has the background to make such a statement while I only have wishful thinking.

    So to sum it up, sandbags will always be on the champions you love while others are shoeboxed, that's how pox works best, deal with it.
     
  2. ghklf

    ghklf The King of Potatoes

    I just want to get the point of it.

    If the point is "sandbags will always be on the champions you love while others are shoeboxed, that's how pox works best, deal with it.", fine.
     
  3. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    If "Melee units hitting something" is a rare scenario then Damage Shield is useless regardless of whether or not it's on Melee or Ranged. If "Melee units hitting something" is NOT a rare scenario, then it'll be useful regardless of whether or not it's on Melee or Ranged. You might be inclined to run your Melee up to Engage, but the same is true of your opponent, and certainly (without the abilities to dissuade such) a big expensive ranged unit like Magearm can make for a good target to try and get some Melee on to occupy/limit their movement (or to just kill them, pending the situation, but it's not like Damage Shield becomes useless if the unit with it dies via Melee).

    Depends, if I'm facing a lot of Melee, I'd probably go with Damage Shield 3 (though still Aura 1, I don't care about Aura/Eater synergy enough to bother with higher ranks in this case). The 2 Nora is nice and all, but I could get 8-12 more damage out of the higher rank in that environment (possibly more, if I'm able to heal back up or something). If I'm not facing a lot of Melee, or I'm particularly confidant in my answers to Melee elsewhere in the deck, I'd go with the cheaper build...

    Also a large part of that is how expensive Magearm is because of everything else. If we were talking some 70 nora 2-4 rng unit, I don't think I'd care as much. If my deployment rate and spell-slinging isn't impacted to any great degree, going for the higher rank just condenses "value" into the single Rune. I mean, if I was facing all KF and FS Ranged or something, sure, I'd drop it then (because I'd not be getting any value out of it), but in an "even" environment what's important is whether or not the Nora is needed to keep a good flow of plays. Magearm's cost not counting his upgrades is high enough that penny-pinching becomes more important.

    Basically, it's not a simple answer.

    Again, I do think it'd be better to just have 1 rank of Damage Shield and free up the upgrade slots for alternatives, but I don't think Damage Shield is inherently worse on Ranged than Melee.

    And again, that's my opinion, you're free to disagree. Only reason I've bothered to write so much on the subject is because of statements like "I really can't see why..." leads me to believe I've failed to properly state my case, particularly given the lack of (on your part) arguments as to why my argument is wrong. Basically, I don't see why you can't see...

    NightMarick made a case, but I disagree with it. One part of his case I didn't cover as well as I could have: One-rounding is great, and avoiding damage is good, but if that's the case than Damage Shield is useful since players will want to avoid taking "unnecessary" damage and thus avoid Damage Shield units with their Melee. This limits options and possibly delays the 1-rounding to come, or sets you up to 1-round more of his stuff in return.

    It's still up to the opponent of course, which is why it's not particularly strong at limiting options, but if you get 2-6 (or more likely 4-12, or even 6-18) damage onto their melee for 1-3 nora, that's not terrible deal. If they refuse to use their Melee in such a manner (and thus avoid the damage) they limited their options for 3 nora, also not a bad deal. And of course that's on top of the more edge cases (putting ranged up front or whatever).
     
  4. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    damage shield is cheap now, only 3 nora for rank 3. It is good on almost anything, why are you complaining about it for?
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2015
  5. Lushiris

    Lushiris I need me some PIE!

    Exactly. Making everything efficient is pretty much impossible, so it's better to have pseudo control over the meta than trying to make everything meta.

    And to make it clear, this is not my opinion, it's how it works right now.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2015
  6. ghklf

    ghklf The King of Potatoes

    The point is "something" is a ranged (4-6)champion, not any front line champion.

    It was not a simple answer, cuz even the worst design can be extremely useful.

    There r only few scenarios that rank 3 Damage Shield worth the added 2 nora.

    Yeah agree, nothing is possible when u do not work on it. It is better to leave terrible design there and make other terrible design.

    "attempting to make everything competitive will most likely result in a failure" can be used to troll any design discussion since any improvement or change can be "attempting to make everything competitive".

    It's like we try to avoid doing anything stupid, but since that is impossible let's stop doing things wise.

    No one said it would make a big change. I just wanted to make it clear and tried to stop them from adding sandbag to champions.

    3 nora is not a big deal, but every nora counts. When u need 1 more nora to cast a key spell or relic u will know that.

    I wish they added sandbag to every champion, I would not see any problem since 3 nora or something is not a big deal, plz do so.
     
  7. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    3 Nora is not a big deal for such a strong and useful ability.
     
  8. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    I guess, in my experience, it's just not that uncommon to get to a "back-line" champion with a "front-line champion." I figure, if you generally get 2-3 triggers worth (on average, and not that uncommon in my experience) it's probably worth the nora, though there are exceptions. Naturally, if you're so well defended that they never get to your back line, than the ability is worthless on a back-liner... but you're probably winning anyway.

    I don't agree that even bad designs can be useful. I do agree that Damage Shield can be more worthwhile on champions that have more synergistic abilities (Absorb/Arrow Eater, Elusive/Dodge, Counter: Ranged, Tough, etc.) but I'd feel that way regardless of their Range. The same can be said of generally well-liked abilities. Sunder is good, but it's even better when paired with Multi-Attack or Hunter: [insert appropriate type here] or what have you.

    It was an interesting conversation. I do agree with several of your points about sandbags (even if I disagree on DS being one in this particular instance). I think it often seems very hap-hazard.
     
  9. Lushiris

    Lushiris I need me some PIE!

    I was pretty much quoting @Sokolov on what I said: I say it results in failure because analyzing and changing all runes(AKA revamp #48) would demand time and effort(and money), and I agree with him that it would end up in players choosing the stronger runes - because it's impossible to truly balance 2000 runes considering the interactions among ALL champions, spells, relics and equipments and some stuff will come out more viable than others.

    So why would he burn his brain changing 2000 runes when he can change 200 and get pretty much the same result?

    So yea, my point stands, it would be a failure.
     
  10. Pedeguerra

    Pedeguerra I need me some PIE!

    "My champs have sandbag abilities, which must be removed in order for my champs to be cheaper" is the new phrase I hate the most around here.
     
  11. NiGhtMaRiK

    NiGhtMaRiK I need me some PIE!


    I think ultimately Sok is making an effort to change a majority of the runes to make them viable. So i don't think he see's it as the same failure.


    Personally i think the way to tackle the subject is to remove clutter from units that don't need it, race bound certain mechanics and abilities while making them available to every race unless the ability/mechanic is otherwise "flavor".
    Costing is really important to people. I more so care about how runes measure up to each other than how much their kit says they should cost.

    I know my last two statements may require extra detail to fully understand, but in effort to make this post short, i'll leave them a bit cryptic.
     
  12. Lushiris

    Lushiris I need me some PIE!

    It filled me with sadness when I realized most people don't read long posts. But again, you're disagreeing with me on something he said himself - I even tagged him so he would call me a liar if that were the case.

    And what you just said about costing is pretty much what he says, hence why several runes have manual cost modifiers. The algorithm isn't the answer to everything and we know it.

    You can also see in general chat at least one post talking about removing superfluous abilities, the one about AoE buffs. This has been discussed for a long time now, and many abilities are now gone. Of course it's no simple feat, so it takes longer than a blink to consolidate everything, specially ability ranks.

    This is about to become a wall of text so I'm stopping. lol.
     
  13. NiGhtMaRiK

    NiGhtMaRiK I need me some PIE!

    ??? I read everything you said. I've even read your previous posts. I have no problem reading long posts as i usually post lengthy post myself.

    Possibly i focused too much on one part of what you said. I wasn't explicitly disagreeing with you, it was just that you said 200 runes vs 2000.
    It's my belief that Sok's target rune pool to make viable and competitive is much larger than that.
    Out of however many runes we have, i would assume he is striving to make a good maybe 40% viable.

    Research and Statistics may show that making everything viable and competitive i'll fated and a waste of time.
    I'd like to believe that the right balance has yet to be found. Doesn't mean that Sok should be charged with trying to find the formula to turn Pox into a unicorn.


    What i was saying about costing and superfluous abilities is something that has been a constant and in the works for sometime.
    What i was more considering in that statement however was runes that had even less abilities base but having more Buff support champs.
    Champs that were like a market, so more Train: X abilties
    Champs that had more interactions like Commander and Command
    More abilities that gave vanilla unit's access to useful abilities through targeted interactions or AoE granting of abilities based on class, race, or stats.

    You could have the "Artic Gift" interaction on a champ. That champ could be weak and otherwise vanilla and maybe have an Aura, or have soften to give them some combat capacity or even healing.
    So that rune has all of 3 abilties. Cost about 60-65 nora. Have decent hp and low dmg and def. But it has useful abilities and can support.

    So this more so would allow you to "build a champ" while in game. The nora cost of champs could go down since they don't have as many base abilities.
    Like instead of giving a racial out on every rune, give it on one rune that imbues the others with that racial. So you just knocked off nora from the many units and gave one unit an ability that empowers its kin for being of the same race.
    Interactions like this could drastically reduce the cost of the many, while supplementing abilities on the few "support" champs.
     
  14. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    The sense of entitlement that everything must be max efficient needs to go away.
     
  15. Pedeguerra

    Pedeguerra I need me some PIE!

    Agreed 100%.
     
  16. ghklf

    ghklf The King of Potatoes

    Where was ur "most likely"?

    If it would be a failure for sure, why do they keep pushing the balancing patch? Just let the game be, no mater how hard they work, there will be always sandbags, always shoeboxed runes anyway.

    And they can even save a whole lot of time and effort(and money). GG

    Evolution is risky, but why do they all want to evolve? Cuz if stopped, then only certain death awaits.

    Yeah, the sense that anything should not be max efficient stays forever. 100% loved for a trolling statement, perfect!
     
  17. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    Just because you do not like/agree with the statement does not make it a troll.

    The major underlying problematic trend with balance right now is over-efficiency. Too many people think their champs needs great stats, cheaply, a basic attack and the perfect set of abilities that go with their envisioned role for that champion. Sorry, thats not how it is. If there is a balance issue, then you have a legitimate gripe, but outside of that, tough Bane Shift. Say your piece and maybe Sok will agree, maybe he wont. But don't pretend that its some great travesty that a champion gets an ability that might be less useful on that champion than on some other champion.
     
  18. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    guys the fact that you all want nothing but super streamlined champs is stupid. because thats what led to cheap meat spam in the first place and results in champs like the pre nerf nefari guardian. Not sure bout all of you but i'd rather not have every single champ ridiculously streamlined
     
  19. ghklf

    ghklf The King of Potatoes

    U have to admit the fact that the usefulness of an ability does depend on what kind of champion has it.

    I did not try to make those ranged champions over-efficient, I just wanted to get rid of those sandbags.

    No one here asks for max efficiency, I called u were trolling because u meant that getting rid of sandbags = asking for max efficiency.

    For god's sake, if this was true then any game change could be treated as asking for max efficiency. Enjoy ur static game.
     
  20. Lushiris

    Lushiris I need me some PIE!

    What. Why are you distorting what I say?

    I never said we shouldn't patch, I'm saying that Pox is currently focusing on a playable meta because it pays off more than trying to balance everything to the same level.

    Just look at the latest expansion, is everything there runnable?
     

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