Badergale's UD shrine rush deck is too strong

You are an idiot, not me.

 

Nothing in pox is better than seeing sok sass someone

 

besides actually seeing him in Q

 

Find a balance-related argument of mine that hinges on the idea that I am a "skilled" player.

I have never seen you make a balance argument where the assumption that you are some kind of elite video game player isn't central to your argument. This thread certainly follows that pattern.

You state that this deck is OP because you lost to it 3x in a row with a deck that was built to counter it.
This is the best possible explanation for your 3 losses in a row only if you are a vastly superior player to badgerale.

There are many other factors that can shape a loss, or a series of losses.
The losing player's deck could be poorly built.
The losing player's deck could be poorly suited for the matchup (a good matchup means more than just having detection units).
The winning player's deck could be better suited to the map(s).
The winning player could draw their best runes for the matchup as they need them while the losing player draws poorly.
The winning player could outplay the losing player throughout the game.
The losing player could generally outplay the winning player but make a pivotal mistake on the one turn that counts.
The winning player's deck could draw the losing player into a situation/playstyle that is unfamiliar to the losing player and the loser loses because they failed to adapt.
Outside factors such as latency or memory leaks could prevent the losing player from fully executing their plan on a pivotal turn.

There are probably several other scenarios or mixtures of the above that can factor into the outcome of the game. The best way to improve at this game is to be honest with yourself about all these factors. Whether it's a win or a loss, if you aren't the top-ranked player your game could stand to improve and you do yourself a disservice if you attribute an outcome to the wrong scenario.

"I have beaten top 10 players. I know balance" is a good way of thinking if you need to boost your self-esteem. It's also a really great way to decouple your decisions from reality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

This game is ~10 years old, people have been arguing about balance for a long time. I've mentioned before that your posting style and your arguments are not unique. There was someone just like you posting in 2015, and in 2014, and as far back as Pox's inception.

The following is a helpful rubric for evaluating how credible somebody's evaluation of rune/module/theme/deck X is. It's not something that's ever really been formalized in the pox community, but I am certain that the more influential voices here think about these things in more-or-less the same way. The higher number represents an argument that is worth considering while tier 0 is white noise.

9 Bases their evaluation on critical frameworks from other fields (psychology, math, philosophy, economics, etc.) that are backed up with a massive body of thought and provide insight into (tier 8).
8 Bases their evaluation on an integrated framework that connects (tier 7) to an internalized library of patterns/explanations that they have built up over time.
7 Bases their evaluation on (tier 1-2) while considering their explanation from (tier 6) to test and reevaluate their assumptions.
6 Bases their evaluation on (tier 2-5) + mentally deconstructing X to explain why it is effective/ineffective in different scenarios.
5 Bases their evaluation on (tier 4) + making a deck where X is a central component and playing several games with it.
4 Bases their evaluation on (tier 3) + making a deck where X not a core piece and playing several games with it.
3 Bases their evaluation on (tier 2) + chatting with other players to get a broader view of when X is effective.
2 Bases their evaluation on (tier 1) + watching the results of several games that other players have played against X.
1 Bases their evaluation on the results of several games that they played against X.
0 Bases their evaluation on the results of a single game that they played against X.

I have always held the opinion that balance shouldn't just be left to the good players. None of these 9 tiers involve "skill." They mostly just involve highschool level cognitive skills such as self-reflection and a willingness to explore outside perspectives. But here's the catch: the higher you climb up this ladder, the more rigorous your evaluations become. Rigor promotes accuracy and adaptability, and it actually makes you a better player!

Even super71 at least pretends to be at tier4 or 5 when he makes his arguments. You couldn't get past 1. It doesn't matter if you say that your opinion matters more because you are a highly skilled player when your low-level cognition betrays that. Every person in this world that ever mastered a skill or subject went through a phase where they realized they weren't good enough. You can't skip that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

 

I had to drop my phone because this post brought so much fire

 

wow you are so smart,

hang on let me debate u

 

But minotaurs are OP...

 

I am not saying they are or aren't just that if someone wants to debate that topic they need to 1. Get facts straight and 2. Bring up valid points why they think so

I am going to acknowledge that Minos are powerful however seeing that most of UDs themes and power spells aren't in the right place I'd argue Minos as they are are vital to keep the faction alive. Furthermore other factions have more absurd stuff going on compared to Minos and as far as I know there is only one good mino player and that's moga bait + you need to take into account he spent the last 3 years playing them so you can't judge them based on him

 

I played minos for quite a while and their core stuff hasn't changed much and I've also seen a bunch of other good players play them but sure, we are digressing from the main topic -- dicemoney being a haughty wanker.

 

I mean Culler is OP, I'm always surprised that it doesn't get nerf called more - probably because it isn't demon so doesn't always make meta decks.

But I don't think Minos are too bad overall.

 

Culler is fine really and probably the one decent ranged unit that UD has and you have to take into account it takes 5 or 6 turns for preparation and once you attack you can only tap once next turn realistically

Youll generally see him coming anyways and position against his range in a non mino deck

 

My issue is that in a normal game you're likely taking at least two rounds to get in the action anyway, more if it's an early deploy, then there is usually some posturing across a font... so preparation really isn't forcing you to do anything that you wouldn't normally not do anyway.

 

especially on A melee unit

 

Absolutely understand that analysis but the one point I'd stress is that every other faction has a wide variety of ranged options while UD is essentially stuck with 4 or 5 including culler

Now I don't know ur opinion on blood tracker and shock bow but I personally wouldn't run them competitively so that's 3 options left demonologist is decent but still doesn't bring that much to the table really cost vs damage wise ((on a different thread id like to open up the debate to bring back cast dark pact))

In the end I'd just like to say if it's not broken let's not try to fix it yes he is good but he is not over the top really and like I said outside Minos You will always see him coming ((range + one or 2 spaces depending on drive or price of victory)) so it's not too bad

 

The usual petty **** measuring going on

Thunderhoof is op, it gives a ridiculous amount of stats for how cheap it is.

@nepyonisdead Name calling gets us nowhere, perhaps try and stay on the topic. Are minos not exceptionally strong ? Multiple options for extreme scaling, encroaching, protective, melee specialist, thirst for battle, render etc. Minotaurs downfall used to be they were melee oriented, dimension doors, pseudo range, have made them very versatile and arguably one of ud's strongest themes. Are minotaurs borderline overpowered, absolutely, do I think they need nerfed, not yet, but if you had a couple competent players using minos, you'd be right here next to him complaining about them.

Thunderhoof is op, but the entire bg itself is not op and is a gimmick bg on steroids but still not broken. You people turn into savages so quickly and gang up on people it's irritating, and partially why no balance discussions can ever actually occur.

@davre I agree with your base statement that losing to a bg 3x doesn't make it op, however you brought nothing to the topic and totally steered away and started talking about skeletons and turned this into a name calling fest ? I just don't see the point, you always come in people's thread either attack someone or make a silly joke, stay on the topic and add to the conversation or don't bother posting.

As for anyone that liked his post, congratulations, you are condoning accomplishing nothing when discussing balance topics, keep up the good work.

Did @DiCEM0nEY state his thread in the correct manner, the answer is no, does he have a point that thunder hoof has a ridiculous amount of stats for a low cost champ, yes he does.

Maybe you guys should all stop circle jerking one another and actually discuss the topic

Get's very irritating watching you guys tear into each other when we already have a small enough community as is, so by all means divert people away from the forums where we already get few posts everyday regarding the actual game.

 

I actually don't mind culler damage, but I don't think he should have dragging attack also with preparation and high damage. Can you imagine arrow singer with both, she may have higher range, but minotaur has much higher starting damage.

 

Good ole Pox...
Now, where were we?
Oh yeah! Nerf Unholy Tomb!!

 

Really?
First off I don't mind anyone whining about a bg or a rune but I do mind when the chief whiner talks Bane Shift to a good player and a friend while being wrong on literally all bases

Thunderhoof is only OP as you said when you are down 2 or more fonts but then I don't see you talking about all the surge skeleton champs that get +5 dmg from the dark rising and the baron that gets 5 ap too with Vifify while being over all the most "broken" theme out there even surpassing frost amp

Thunderhoof has been the same since forever so no it does t need a change and as a good friend of mine always used to tell me : don't get mad get good

So instead of nerf calling everything ((I remember you were the first to whine about grimlic till he got un equippable) everyone should aim to get better

Look up videos of pox 7 years ago and compare the champs then and now to see how balanced the game is now...difference is people used to actually try to be good instead of expecting sokolov to hand them free wins by buffing their bgs

 

(((Melee))) unit in UD. Bonus 4 damage at long range with multi attack and dragging attack.

This topic was about badergales shrine rush deck, which is...too strong. It' really too hard to defend the font and not lose the game. Even when shifting a bg to include twice as much detection, and majestic I could not stop it, because it only takes 2 units and a spell to have a real threat of ending the game, and UD has too many tools avail to make the deck work.

This playstyle has been nerfed whenever it arises (surge in skeletal lerper was an example of similar play). I don't see why there is a huge controversy here.

To pretend that I just need to "get good" is irrelevant. The playstyle makes the best counter to "Q when badergale isn't playing" because it's basically a loss when playing a standard deck.

Even a modified standard deck to counter this deck didn't work...